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  1.    02 Feb 2015 #201
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Regarding change. Here's the #1 thing you should know about Windows 8 and it's successors (including Windows 10).

    Windows 8+ is not about giving you a better Windows 7. It's about transitioning you to WinRT (ie Modern/Metro/etc).

    It's sole purpose is to transition people to WinRT applications. If you refuse to be transitioned, then you might as well stay on Windows 7, because each new version of Windows will be a larger percentage of WinRT.

    At some point, Windows 7 will no longer be supported (yes, that will be a long time from now, but that's only 5 years... to put this in perspective, Windows 7 was released 6 years ago.. so in other words, in less time than the timespan of Windows 7's release to today, windows 7 will be unsupported). At that time, you will have to choose whether you use an unsupported OS (which my previous post details the risks of doing that) or having to jump to a fully WinRT system. I don't know about you, but I like to learn things in small steps rather than all at once, so I'd much rather transition over the space of 5 years than all at once.

    Yes, it's true that software doesn't "get old" like physical things.. but it gets old in other ways. For instance, new releases of software you use may not work anymore on your OS, even though it may be officially "supported" by Microsoft. New hardware can be released that the hardware vendors decide they won't support Windows 7 with drivers... So you may buy hardware and find it won't work with your OS (think things like cameras, or MP3 players, or other things you plug in). Another way it might get "old" is that more and more security patches have to get released and applied, and these patches are bolted on the side rather than a built-in part of the OS. This is less efficient, and can even slow down your system significantly.

    The point about "driving it into the ground" means that you use it until it can't be used anymore... XP, for instance really shouldn't be used anymore, so anyone who is still using it has "driven it into the ground". And its well past time to upgrade to something else, much like a jalopy being held together with bondo and bailing wire, belching smoke and parts falling off wherever they go.. sure, it still works and gets you around... but we can safely call it well beyond its expiration date. Even if you've managed to keep that car in pristine shape, and it's as good as the day you bought it... you might find that it just doesn't stand up to more modern usage and demands. For instance, a 50 year old car is trivial to hotwire and steal, while a modern vehicle with modern anti-theft technologies is less vulnerable.

    This is not "change for changes sake". There is a purpose and a plan, and an end result Microsoft is trying to achieve here. You can either buy in, or not.. but if you're not, complaining about it isn't going to stop it. The choices have been made, and MS is going there and it's way too late for them to back out now.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  2.    02 Feb 2015 #202
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    @Mystere, that was very well put and it really clears things up.

    Thanks for the great post.
    Jeff
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  3.    02 Feb 2015 #203

    Hi there

    I think perhaps Ms needs to sit down with some business users and talk to USERS rather than only the technical people. Yes of course it's important that Windows 10 WORKS - but they need to see how people actually USE computers in a workplace -- and you'll probably find that there's quite a difference in the use between a workplace and HOME. In a HOME people may have hugely more modern and leading edge devices of all different types. In an Office sometimes people are working with hardware and applications that are "Donkeys years old".

    I saw recently some UK Banks wanting a shedload of I.T contractors even if they were "retirees" to come back and work for a year on some MAINFRAME COBOL stuff -- that must be at least 40 years old !!!!!! They were actually offering quite good rates (by todays standards) too with zero chance of it being off-shored as well.

    Metro is all fine and good if that's where newer apps are coming from - but if you want devices to be successful in a work place you have to provide for a very different environment.

    A Home user can install say 3 different OS'es at will and sling as much hardware on as they want or can afford. In a workplace scheduling changes to equipment and working practices is quite an expensive task which will take time and certainly shouldn't be undertaken lightly.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  4.    02 Feb 2015 #204
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    KS
    Posts : 526
    W 7 desktop Home Premium 64 - OS

    Why are you so concerned about other people's computer safety, what is it going to do, blow up in their face. Just protect your own and get on with it.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  5.    02 Feb 2015 #205
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Regarding change. Here's the #1 thing you should know about Windows 8 and it's successors (including Windows 10).

    Windows 8+ is not about giving you a better Windows 7. It's about transitioning you to WinRT (ie Modern/Metro/etc).

    It's sole purpose is to transition people to WinRT applications. If you refuse to be transitioned, then you might as well stay on Windows 7, because each new version of Windows will be a larger percentage of WinRT.

    At some point, Windows 7 will no longer be supported (yes, that will be a long time from now, but that's only 5 years... to put this in perspective, Windows 7 was released 6 years ago.. so in other words, in less time than the timespan of Windows 7's release to today, windows 7 will be unsupported). At that time, you will have to choose whether you use an unsupported OS (which my previous post details the risks of doing that) or having to jump to a fully WinRT system. I don't know about you, but I like to learn things in small steps rather than all at once, so I'd much rather transition over the space of 5 years than all at once.

    Yes, it's true that software doesn't "get old" like physical things.. but it gets old in other ways. For instance, new releases of software you use may not work anymore on your OS, even though it may be officially "supported" by Microsoft. New hardware can be released that the hardware vendors decide they won't support Windows 7 with drivers... So you may buy hardware and find it won't work with your OS (think things like cameras, or MP3 players, or other things you plug in). Another way it might get "old" is that more and more security patches have to get released and applied, and these patches are bolted on the side rather than a built-in part of the OS. This is less efficient, and can even slow down your system significantly.

    The point about "driving it into the ground" means that you use it until it can't be used anymore... XP, for instance really shouldn't be used anymore, so anyone who is still using it has "driven it into the ground". And its well past time to upgrade to something else, much like a jalopy being held together with bondo and bailing wire, belching smoke and parts falling off wherever they go.. sure, it still works and gets you around... but we can safely call it well beyond its expiration date. Even if you've managed to keep that car in pristine shape, and it's as good as the day you bought it... you might find that it just doesn't stand up to more modern usage and demands. For instance, a 50 year old car is trivial to hotwire and steal, while a modern vehicle with modern anti-theft technologies is less vulnerable.

    This is not "change for changes sake". There is a purpose and a plan, and an end result Microsoft is trying to achieve here. You can either buy in, or not.. but if you're not, complaining about it isn't going to stop it. The choices have been made, and MS is going there and it's way too late for them to back out now.
    Clamav supports older operating system and if the current one doesn't work, you can find an old version that will. The reason they kept the virus list updated on all versions.

    I don't upgrade some software if there is no issue. I am using an older version Foxit Reader because the newer version didn't work. The plug-in for Foxit pdf didn't work with my bank, but the old version does. I have no idea why.

    Most software makers make the program compatible for previous operating systems not just the current even after Microsoft extend support ends. In fact, there is an unofficial sp 4 for windows xp.

    On backing out, doesn't mean we can't

    It all depends on their definition of support lifetime of the device.

    Windows 10 for Enterprise: More secure and up to date

    **Details on our device’ supported lifetime policy will be shared at a later time.
    I wish they would share it sooner unless Microsoft is afraid it will scare people off getting windows 10. If that is the case, Microsoft is not thinking correctly. Whether its today or several months down the road when they release the info, it still could scare people off.

    Technically, every computer is always insecure. No matter the operating system or how many update are installed. I would prefer using windows 98se over Windows xp. I believe windows 98se is the most secure system. I don't know if windows 7 can live up to that after extended supports end. We will see.

    On the drivers, you could download them & back them up. This way you will always have them if needed.

    I also think the release scheduled was wrong on newer operating system, but I understand they won't have new operating systems anymore. I don't think a new operating system, should come along till a year or two before the extend support end on the previous operating system. Another operating systems got it right. They have both long term support and those wanting to upgrade can.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    02 Feb 2015 #206
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post
    Why are you so concerned about other people's computer safety, what is it going to do, blow up in their face.
    That a misnomer at least for me. I have been running windows xp sp3 and windows 98se dual boot on my old computer without any issue. I use Clamav for me. No viruses. Yes, I also ran an online scanner as well. No viruses.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    02 Feb 2015 #207
    Join Date : Nov 2014
    UK
    Posts : 239
    Windows 10 Pro 64bit

    Quote Originally Posted by whs View Post
    Besides, appearances can be deceiving.
    LF, I agree with that. My point was that they are mostly older people with different interests. But they are a big part of the 1 Billion + users for whom we have to propose simple solutions. Most of the people on this forum know anyhow what to do.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    If you think they look old, then I must be ancient!! But I still like to keep up with modern innovations.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  8.    02 Feb 2015 #208

    Quote Originally Posted by whs View Post
    Mystere, I see what you are saying. But I am not that kind of shopper. I am quite happy with my 17 year old car here in the US and in Germany where I had to buy a new car because I cannot drive at night any more and the wife needed an automatic, I hate this new car. It has so many gizmos that I will probably never discover everything. The user manual has 560 pages with an additional 200 pages just for the radio,

    Give me my old stick shift car back that had 3 dials and did what I wanted and not what the car thinks is best.
    Yes but there comes a point where the the maintenance becomes costly for the old car. Another example although tires may not be a good example but what if you need tires and your type aren't made anymore? And the tires are key you getting to where you need to go. You the ability to get a replacement 1 year ago for free but that time has passed and now you have to pay 200 for the same brand new care.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  9.    02 Feb 2015 #209
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Emma View Post
    Why are you so concerned about other people's computer safety, what is it going to do, blow up in their face. Just protect your own and get on with it.
    Understand, of course that all of this is just one persons opinion. Take it or not.

    I will repeat something you obviously missed.

    This is why using XP today is dangerous. Not just for you, but your computer can be taken over and used as an attack vector for others, making you part of the problem overall. Often times people don't even know their systems have been compromised in these ways, and they are acting as an attack vector without even knowing it.
    Maybe you don't understand this. What it means is that if your computer is compromised, it can be used in the commission of another attack on another computer. This is how internet worms work, moving from system to system infecting everything they can find and using them as new bases of operation.

    It's like when someone uses someone elses open wifi router to commit a crime. The police will come to YOU, and you might claim "Oh, well, someone must have been using my open router", well that may be hard to prove and more importantly at some point YOU have to have responsibility for allowing that to happen. The same is true for open email relays, which are used for Spam. The internet rightly cuts these off, and is the primary reason most ISP's won't allow you to run your own email servers anymore on home networks.

    When you put your vulnerable computer on the internet, you are becoming part of the problem of insecurity, and becoming a piece in the attack infrastructure of criminals. THAT is why I care what you do. Your actions affect me, and everyone else who are citizens of the network.

    If you want to run your 15 year old OS in isolation without connecting to the net, by all means... I won't argue.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  10.    02 Feb 2015 #210
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Posts : 246

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Too many comments to keep track of here... but let me say a few things based on what I have read here:

    Backups to other disks (ie syncs, even imaging really) are inherently dangerous. First, there are many things that can occur that will destroy all attached drives to a system. I once had a power supply quite literally explode on me, sending a power surge through the entire system and destroying my mirrored "backup" drives as well as my primary drives. These surges can even pass through network cables and USB ports. So even external storage that's on your same network can be affected. This is not as rare as you might think it is...
    You left out theft, natural disasters, and user error. I agree mirroring (as in RAID 1) is dangerous and I never advocate it (or any other kind of continuous backup, with one exception I will cover in a moment) for the very reasons you pointed out. The Mirror mode in FreeFileSync isn't the same thing as RAID 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    ... The only solutions to these problems are disconnected backups. That is, remote network backups that are not directly accessible, or where you take a backup done to external storage and physically disconnect it...
    That is exactly what I do and advocate. Data isn't safe unless it exists in at least three different places. A bare minimal backup scheme would use two drives: one onsite and one offsite. This is the scheme I advocate most since most people can't afford much more than that and it would be difficult to get them to do any more than that (they feel it would be too much work).

    I go a "bit" further. I have four backup drives for each HDD bin use in my computer. Two of each set of four are kept locally (in a drawer) and get connected to the computer only for the amount of time it takes to do a backup. The other two of each set of four reside in my safe deposit box at my credit union. They get swapped out with the local drives no less than once a month. Since the offsite backups will not have any data added since the drives were put in the safe deposit box, I also use Carbonite.com to backup my data online (I also suggest Carbonite.com to people as an inexpensive and easy offsite backup alternative). Recovering data from any cloud backup service (note that I said "cloud backup service", not "cloud storage"; there is a huge difference) normally takes a long time (unless one shells out for an expensive business plan). However, I can recover most of my data from othe offsiter drives, the get the rest from Carbonite, daramatically reducing the time it takes. Btw, data that gets sent to Carbonite is encrypted before it leaves the computer and you hold the key. Carbonite is unable to access your data; it just stores it.

    Both FreeFileSync and Carbonite.com have Versioning. Normally, I do not advocate continuous backup schemes for reason you have already stated. Carbonite.com is continuous however, it also keeps copies of deleted files and the originals of changed files for 30 days; this is called Versioning. If my files were to be encrypted due to ransomeware, I could freeze my backup to preserved my data long enough to recover the original files. It would take a long time but at least my data would still be safe.

    Versioning on FreeFileSync works pretty much the same. The user designates a folder or drive to send deleted files to. I have a 4TB drive in my machine I use for my versioning drive. That drive also gets four backups.

    While no backup scheme is ever going to be perfect, I'm pretty much protected from just about anything that doesn't destroy life as we know it.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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