Your Build 9860 Evaluation

Indianatone said:

M$ has been found guilty and convicted (Netscape Browser) and if the Bush Government had not "WON" the election Microsoft would have been punished but they have friends in high places.

I think you are a little fuzzy about the definitions of "convicted" and "guilty" in the US legal system.

US v MS was a civil lawsuit, not a criminal trial. One cannot be "found guilty" of anything in a civil trial. Nor can one be "punished" in the sense that you seem to be implying. The only "punishments" possible from a civil trial are fines, restitution, injunctive relief (behavior modification) and possibly forced structural remedies.

By way of comparison, when OJ Simpson was put on trial for murder, he was acquitted. That trial risked prison or even death as "punishment". He was later sued in civil court by the families of the deceased and lost, and his only "punishment" was financial.

Part of this is that criminal and civil trials have different standards by which they are judged. Criminal trials are much stricter than civil. Criminal requires that someone be guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Civil a person can be found liable even if there is reasonable doubt.

This is why in criminal court, someone is "guilty" but in civil court they are found "liable" or "at fault". Someone can be found to be liable because they have been deemed to be guilty of violating a criminal law, but that's not the same thing as having been found guilty in a criminal court, because as I said, the standards for proving this are much lower.

So no. There was absolutely no possible chance, regardless of administration, that Microsoft would have been "punished" by anything other than some fines, and/or promising not to do it again. The absolute worst possible outcome that could have occurred would be a structural change at Microsoft, which probably would never have happened anyways since spinning off the browser business would have really not done anything to help.

Sadly, this "myth" of MS "being found guilty" and them being "a convicted monopolist" and other such things are complete fabrications by the internet, and repeated by people who have no idea how the legal system works, or what those terms even mean.

Mystere said:

Indianatone said:

M$ has been found guilty and convicted (Netscape Browser) and if the Bush Government had not "WON" the election Microsoft would have been punished but they have friends in high places.

I think you are a little fuzzy about the definitions of "convicted" and "guilty" in the US legal system.

US v MS was a civil lawsuit, not a criminal trial. One cannot be "found guilty" of anything in a civil trial. Nor can one be "punished" in the sense that you seem to be implying. The only "punishments" possible from a civil trial are fines, restitution, injunctive relief (behavior modification) and possibly forced structural remedies.

By way of comparison, when OJ Simpson was put on trial for murder, he was acquitted. That trial risked prison or even death as "punishment". He was later sued in civil court by the families of the deceased and lost, and his only "punishment" was financial.

Part of this is that criminal and civil trials have different standards by which they are judged. Criminal trials are much stricter than civil. Criminal requires that someone be guilty beyond reasonable doubt. Civil a person can be found liable even if there is reasonable doubt.

This is why in criminal court, someone is "guilty" but in civil court they are found "liable" or "at fault". Someone can be found to be liable because they have been deemed to be guilty of violating a criminal law, but that's not the same thing as having been found guilty in a criminal court, because as I said, the standards for proving this are much lower.

So no. There was absolutely no possible chance, regardless of administration, that Microsoft would have been "punished" by anything other than some fines, and/or promising not to do it again. The absolute worst possible outcome that could have occurred would be a structural change at Microsoft, which probably would never have happened anyways since spinning off the browser business would have really not done anything to help.

Sadly, this "myth" of MS "being found guilty" and them being "a convicted monopolist" and other such things are complete fabrications by the internet, and repeated by people who have no idea how the legal system works, or what those terms even mean.

Well thanks for clearing that up for us Mystere. Nice to have a lawyer on staff. Still I have seen plenty of the damage inflicted by M$ over the years my mind will not be changed, I would not trust them to do the right thing.

HippsieGypsie said:

Didn’t get to use Build 9841 but for a few days because my system was down, but what I remember of it I don’t see much difference with 9860. Just a lot of bug fixes perhaps?

I’ll get through the whole development and make my comments in the Feedback app, but so far this whole edition isn’t doing it for me and I’ll be staying more on my 8.1 side for now. The general template has been laid out and can pretty much see the writing on the wall. Booting to the Start Screen even if a touch screen is not detected is a biggie and a must. Not sure about the Store apps on the desktop. I prefer it separated, but I understand why MS is doing it this way. It really is back asswards though. Snapping still sucks. Half the combo keys aren’t working yet. A real mess to navigate this thing yet.

Cortana will be a great addition and will be difficult to pass up. Wish they would have added her/it to 8.1 as they did on WP8.1. It along with Modern Office and zPC Settings app I wouldn’t really need the desktop or this so-far-crap edition anymore. I could live my years out with 8.1.

Looking in the Feedback app I saw the comment about Neanderthals that had quite few votes. I had a good chuckle.

So far as the touch issue > I ran across this the other day: Windows Journal Tutorial - YouTube

You are correct it is mostly bug fixes. Please do not despair, in the major brief I read somewhere M$ site on this release it has gone backwards in some respects. I am sure you will get your Modern UI in the consumer release slated for early next year (their words not mine). I am sure the UI guys and gals are hard at work making it a smoother transition between the different modes. That was called continuum and they are working on that.