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  1.    22 May 2015 #151
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
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    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    It is a fact that W7 has a telemetry feature/function that reports information to MS (CEIP).

    The telemetry may be 100% accurate (about the items it reports on).

    In that case, I see two explanations about the Start Menu mystery:
    1. Giving MS the benefit of the doubt - I conclude that MS misinterpreted the data.
    2. Treating MS like any other Corporation (or politician) - I conclude that the data was cherry-picked to justify a pre-determined position.


    Those 2 graphs are a good example.
    They:
    • Do not indicate how many times users opened the Start Menu
    • Only indicate that users weren't pinning programs to the Start Menu (they seem to prefer the Taskbar)
    • Do not indicate if users were relying on the MRU section of the Start Menu
    • Do not indicate how many items were dumped on the desktop
    The graph is just a representation of a minute segment of all the data they collected. Also, the blog article is just a brief history of the Start menu. No, they didn't reveal all of the data. I'm quite sure they could've written a book on the subject. The point is that more user were using the Taskbar and Quick Launch within, therefore using the Start menu less, therefore less were opening the Start menu. If a = b and b = c then a = c. Yes?

    I've seen too many.
    So you do know what I'm getting at. My W7 desktop ended up that way. I hate the mouse so I had all my frequently-used programs on the Taskbar (WinKey/T to focus, then TabKey) to choose. The rest of the programs and a host of IE shortcuts on a sea of icons! I guess that's why I took to the Start screen so well. Much better navigation.

    I think they simply "copied the style" of Android and Apple mobile devices, which had already been on the market for years.
    This:

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    And this:

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    Don't look anything like this:

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    Or this, especially with live tiles:

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    I envisioned them looking at a desktop screen loaded with a sea of icons coming up with the idea of the Start screen.

    The first GUI was introduced by Xerox PARC back in the 70's. It had a bitmapped screen and icons. The icon was invented there by David Canfield Smith . The first touch screen was introduced by E.A. Johnson in 1965. The first touch screen smart phone was the IBM Simon. I don't think it's fair to attribute it to Apple and Android.

    I didn't say anything (good or bad) about the W10 Start Menu.
    This was just a general statement to end my post. Just my thoughts about the new W10 Start menu. It wasn't entirely directed at you.

    The W10 Start Menu indicates, MS has finally implemented something similar, to the ideas that were suggested by W8 Start Screen critics, before W8's release (i.e. a different selectable system for mobile users and desktop users).
    I feel most generally the critics wanted the old Start menu back as an option. Agree that it's similar but performs more like the Start screen/ All apps screen combination, especially at full screen. I still hold to the belief that it's a step backward.
    Last edited by HippsieGypsie; 22 May 2015 at 15:22.
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  2.    24 May 2015 #152
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,570
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    How is that the exact point you were alluding to? You were talking about patches that brick the OS, and then mentioned Heartbleed as being one.
    I was actually referring to the idea that more testing will eliminate all bugs:
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    And, I disagree. It will in fact virtually eliminate the possibility of a dodgy update making it to anyone other than early adopter/fast ring users. When millions of people are on the fast ring, it will be all but impossible for an untested scenario to rear its head when it gets to the slow ring. No, it's not strictly impossible, but so unlikely as to be almost unheard of. The only way it could happen would be if someone released an update to the slow ring by accident, and that seems unlikely.
    That is the same picture that OSS supporters paint, when talking about OSS.

    I agree that in principle that more "looking" should lead to the faster identification/location of bugs.
    I'm not sure Heartbleed, POODLE and FREAK support that proposition.
    Despite being used probably billions of times, "... literally for over a decade ..." (apparently) nobody noticed it until recently.


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    The graph is just a representation of a minute segment of all the data they collected.
    I'm certain they collect more info than what items are pinned to the Start Menu or Taskbar.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    The point is that more user were using the Taskbar and Quick Launch within, therefore using the Start menu less, therefore less were opening the Start menu. If a = b and b = c then a = c. Yes?
    No.

    You are using one set of data to extrapolate something different.
    It's like saying every time the driver's door is opened on a car, somebody proceeded to drive it.

    Those graphs do not show how many times an item was launched from the Start Menu or Taskbar.
    There may well be graphs that do show where programs were launched from but those graphs don't show that (they only where users were pinning icons).
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  3.    24 May 2015 #153

    Hi there

    I think it's been said often enough that having to scroll endlessly on a desktop to get to a program you want is just plain BONKERS and Windows 8 proved that very fact.

    On an Android type phone that's not normally a problem but even on these devices once you have a whole slew of apps installed scrolling can also become a bit tedious.

    A Cascadable menu with an unlimited number of levels is still by far the best way of navigating desktops for most users. Yes you can pin some frequently used programs to desktop / taskbar but some applications that have a lot of "sub menus" can't really be handled via a single tile.

    Phones / tablets are NOT DESKTOPS -- Desktops (including "classical Laptops" ) need a different basic GUI to small screen touch devices -- Windows 10 has addressed this problem with its Start menu -- OK not perfect yet but certainly liveable with.

    I might not NEED the menu 90% of the time -- that's because I have my most used programs on the desktop or on the quick launch taskbar or even pinned to the start. For other more obscure applications I'm glad I can use the menu.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  4.    24 May 2015 #154
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by jimbo45 View Post
    A Cascadable menu with an unlimited number of levels is still by far the best way of navigating desktops for most users. Yes you can pin some frequently used programs to desktop / taskbar but some applications that have a lot of "sub menus" can't really be handled via a single tile.

    Phones / tablets are NOT DESKTOPS -- Desktops (including "classical Laptops" ) need a different basic GUI to small screen touch devices -- Windows 10 has addressed this problem with its Start menu -- OK not perfect yet but certainly liveable with.
    Really? That's strange, since users of MacOS X have not had such a menu since.. well.. ever... and somehow they manage to get by with only a dock and an "Applications" folder they open up to launch new apps.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Let's face it. It's just the fact that you are used to using a cascading menu that you find it "the best way". I guarantee that if you had hand/eye coordination problems, you wouldn't feel the same. If you had shaky hands and couldn't navigate the menus with a mouse easily, you wouldn't feel the same way. If you had poor eyesight, and couldn't read those tiny menu entries you wouldn't feel the same way.

    If this was such required functionality, why is it that MacOS X users have never seemed to need it?
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  5.    24 May 2015 #155
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Idaho USA
    Posts : 4,826
    OS X, Win 10

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Really? That's strange, since users of MacOS X have not had such a menu since.. well.. ever... and somehow they manage to get by with only a dock and an "Applications" folder they open up to launch new apps.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Let's face it. It's just the fact that you are used to using a cascading menu that you find it "the best way". I guarantee that if you had hand/eye coordination problems, you wouldn't feel the same. If you had shaky hands and couldn't navigate the menus with a mouse easily, you wouldn't feel the same way. If you had poor eyesight, and couldn't read those tiny menu entries you wouldn't feel the same way.

    If this was such required functionality, why is it that MacOS X users have never seemed to need it?
    As my primary Computer is a Mac I couldn't agree more. "Who needs a Stinkin' Menu". . .
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  6.    25 May 2015 #156
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
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    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    The OSX market share is even smaller than the W8 series.
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  7.    25 May 2015 #157
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    That Mac os folder is technically a menu.
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  8.    25 May 2015 #158
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 34,845
    Dual boot Windows 10 FCU Pro x 64 & current Insider 10 Pro

    One should learn how to use new tech to take advantage of new tech. I'm not speaking of just trying it out for a few minutes. More like using it for a week or more to really get the "feel" of it.

    I have 60 tiles on my WP8.1 Lumia six-inch 1520. It takes me one swipe to reach the bottom. One swipe to the left gets me All apps. Of course this is generally true with any smart phone. The touch-orientation-type Start screen On my 8.1 tower PC ironically makes keyboarding quicker than using the mouse or even using touch. Start screen > Page down key gets me to the next page instantly. Zero in with arrow keys > Enter key. End key gets me to the end instantly. Home key returns to the beginning instantly. Using the mouse on the Start screen simply roll the mouse to the right (if right-handed) for the screen to roll left. No need to press any buttons to grab the scroll bar.

    The Start menu in 10 is a bear to navigate with a keyboard, therefore a step backwards IMO. The Start menu in 7 was quicker to navigate even though I think it was slow. At least the W10 Start menu gives me the personal information I enjoy in 8.1 Start screen via the live tiles. The old W7 menu doesn't.

    The quickest machine on earth should give us the quickest personal information and the quickest way to navigate to get work done. IMO 8.1 is the quickest to date. Of course this is all a matter of personal opinion and choice. Everyone has there own. Until there are results of a scientific ergonomic study of any OS on any device we'll never know for certain what is the quickest. I've not seen one to date.
    Last edited by HippsieGypsie; 25 May 2015 at 07:41.
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  9.    25 May 2015 #159
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 18,016
    Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro N, Win10 Home, Win10 Pro Insider Fast Ring, Windows 8.1 Pro, Ubuntu

    For all apps one can also use the pos 1 key and the end key to navigate fast on Win 8.1. Touch based stuff is much faster with keyboard using special keys.
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  10.    25 May 2015 #160
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Idaho USA
    Posts : 4,826
    OS X, Win 10

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    That Mac os folder is technically a menu.
    Good try, albeit it is not, nor ever will be. . .it is a "Start Screen." Apple did away with the term "Start Menu."
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