Piecing together the Windows as a Service puzzle for Windows 10

lehnerus2000 said:

How many people will stay on the "Fast Ring" if every second update forces them to refresh/re-image their machines?
How many of those people will whine to their friends and anyone else who'll listen (in person, on the media or via blogs)?

Why should that matter to you if you're not going to be one of those people? We have almost 4 million people in the Insider program now, and that's beta level stuff with broken updates all the time.

lehnerus2000 said:

The end result matters, not the issue that was supposed to be fixed (e.g. cosmetic, stability or security).

If the end result is a machine that has been broken by an update, most users won't care what the update was supposed to be for.

Either you're being deliberately obtuse here, or you really don't understand what Heartbleed was... It was a bug in the SSL stack that had been around, literally for over a decade... that nobody had noticed until someone discovered it and started exploiting it. I really fail to understand how this applies to this scenario at all. I suggest you actually do a little research on these things before you start arguing about them.

lehnerus2000 said:

I knew someone would nitpick that despite saying more "looking" not more people looking.

Telemetry is of no use if an update causes telemetry to stop working because:

Not true at all, Telemetry can tell them if the update was downloaded, and the update began installation, but never finished either because the machine was offline or because it failed and telemetry told them that. Lack of telemetry is also telemetry.

lehnerus2000 said:

Sinofsky claimed that W8 dropped the Start Menu because (allegedly) W7 Telemetry showed that no one used the Start Menu.
We know how that turned out.
In that case, telemetry was used as a smokescreen to justify a change that MS had already decided they were going to introduce "come Hell or high water".

It was true, but... sometimes people freak out about the loss of something they don't use... they fear the fact they might need it, not that they do need it, like a security blanket.

Windows 8, much like Vista was more of a wake up call to everyone in the industry that the status quo is changing. It was never intended to be the destination, just one step along a path of many changes that would ultimately lead to a virtually unrecognizably different OS down the road.

But first, they have to burn the security blankets....

groze said:

Just for information, A lot of people and oems have Telemetry turned off by default. Some if they knew about Telemetry might turn it on. I also think people have a concern with privacy when Telemetry is turned on. I am referring to Windows 7.

This its true. Because telemetry was turned of by normal users Microsoft had to do with what they got and the end product was al that was wrong in Windows 8:

Why Should I Send This Data?

It’s actually a fairly good idea for you to send usage statistics and crash reports. Sending usage statistics ensures that developers know how people like you use the program and can make decisions with your usage patterns in mind. For example, when Microsoft removed the Start button from Windows 8, they said they did so because very few people actually used the Start button according to the usage statistics they gathered from the “Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program” in Windows 7. Some people theorized that perhaps only less-demanding beginner users had the Customer Experience Improvement Program enabled, while power users — who did use the Start button — were much more likely to disable it. Perhaps if more power users had had this feature enabled, Microsoft would have reconsidered removing the Start button — a clear error on their part, as they’re adding a Start button back to Windows 8.1.

Source: http://www.howtogeek.com/166021/htg-...ld-i-let-them/

lehnerus2000 said:

Telemetry also has to be interpreted correctly.

Sinofsky claimed that W8 dropped the Start Menu because (allegedly) W7 Telemetry showed that no one used the Start Menu.

We know how that turned out.

In that case, telemetry was used as a smokescreen to justify a change that MS had already decided they were going to introduce "come Hell or high water".

Are you saying Microsoft misinterpreted the numbers? You somewhat admitted that the telemetry was correct, but it seems you twisted it around accusing Sinofsky and/or others of fixing the data (your "allegedly") and using it is a smokescreen? Which is it?

According to the telemetry the fact is that more users weren't using the Start Menu and the trajectory was that more more were using it less as time went on.

To really bring this all home, let’s take a look at where people are pinning their apps. Figure 4 reveals that 85% of people have three or more items pinned to the taskbar compared to a mere 23% who have the same number pinned to the Start menu. Although the taskbar and Start menu have different pinned defaults, many people do customize both of them when they want to. The message is clear that the majority of people want most of their apps on the taskbar rather than having to dig into Start menu.


Attachment 19456


We also know that enthusiasts in particular use their Windows 7 taskbar even more than the Start menu. Keyboard shortcuts like Win + <n> (where n corresponds to the sequence of an application icon on the taskbar) make it even faster for the keyboard experts to instantly launch and switch with the taskbar (and those shortcuts continue to work in Windows 8). When we visit IT pros, it’s not uncommon for us to see a taskbar filled with icons for standard corporate desktops. We even see items like Control Panel pinned to the taskbar to save people a trip to Start. Pinning is also increasing in popularly because you can now also pin websites to your taskbar with IE 9. Fortunately, there’s plenty of room on the taskbar—even at 1024x768 the taskbar can hold 22 small icons. Add the power of Jump lists, and theoretically, you can also have access to 220 files, folders, and sites at that same resolution! This means that for those who wish to just use desktop apps, the taskbar provides the room to quickly access the things you need every day without going to the Start menu.

Source: Evolving the Start menu - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs


Not sure about you, but I can't tell you how many desktop screens I've seen with icons plastered all over it. Where do you think they got the idea of the Start Screen? From thin air?

Did it fit their mobile market business plan? Did it fit their plan of an OS across all devices? You bet it did. Perfect timing I guess.

I think they did well with the Start Menu/Start Screen combo introduced in 10. A good compromise. Personally I don't think it's as good is the Start Screen/All apps in 8, but I think it'll do well for most.

groze said:

Just for information, A lot of people and oems have Telemetry turned off by default. Some if they knew about Telemetry might turn it on. I also think people have a concern with privacy when Telemetry is turned on. I am referring to Windows 7.

Agreed.

Mystere said:

Either you're being deliberately obtuse here, or you really don't understand what Heartbleed was... It was a bug in the SSL stack that had been around, literally for over a decade... that nobody had noticed until someone discovered it and started exploiting it.

Thank you for confirming the exact point I was alluding to.

Mystere said:

I really fail to understand how this applies to this scenario at all. I suggest you actually do a little research on these things before you start arguing about them.

The fact that you have confirmed the exact point I was alluding to and then tried to attack me with it, indicates that you are the one who has is experiencing difficulties.

HippsieGypsie said:

Are you saying Microsoft misinterpreted the numbers? You somewhat admitted that the telemetry was correct, but it seems you twisted it around accusing Sinofsky and/or others of fixing the data (your "allegedly") and using it is a smokescreen? Which is it?

It is a fact that W7 has a telemetry feature/function that reports information to MS (CEIP).

The telemetry may be 100% accurate (about the items it reports on).
In that case, I see two explanations about the Start Menu mystery:

1. Giving MS the benefit of the doubt - I conclude that MS misinterpreted the data.
2. Treating MS like any other Corporation (or politician) - I conclude that the data was cherry-picked to justify a pre-determined position.

HippsieGypsie said:

According to the telemetry the fact is that more users weren't using the Start Menu and the trajectory was that more more were using it less as time went on.

Those 2 graphs are a good example.
They:

• Do not indicate how many times users opened the Start Menu
• Only indicate that users weren't pinning programs to the Start Menu (they seem to prefer the Taskbar)
• Do not indicate if users were relying on the MRU section of the Start Menu
• Do not indicate how many items were dumped on the desktop

HippsieGypsie said:

Not sure about you, but I can't tell you how many desktop screens I've seen with icons plastered all over it.

I've seen too many.

HippsieGypsie said:

Where do you think they got the idea of the Start Screen? From thin air?

Did it fit their mobile market business plan? Did it fit their plan of an OS across all devices? You bet it did. Perfect timing I guess.

I think they simply "copied the style" of Android and Apple mobile devices, which had already been on the market for years.

HippsieGypsie said:

I think they did well with the Start Menu/Start Screen combo introduced in 10. A good compromise. Personally I don't think it's as good is the Start Screen/All apps in 8, but I think it'll do well for most.

I didn't say anything (good or bad) about the W10 Start Menu.

The W10 Start Menu indicates, MS has finally implemented something similar, to the ideas that were suggested by W8 Start Screen critics, before W8's release (i.e. a different selectable system for mobile users and desktop users).