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  1.    19 May 2015 #141
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
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    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    How many people will stay on the "Fast Ring" if every second update forces them to refresh/re-image their machines?
    How many of those people will whine to their friends and anyone else who'll listen (in person, on the media or via blogs)?
    Why should that matter to you if you're not going to be one of those people? We have almost 4 million people in the Insider program now, and that's beta level stuff with broken updates all the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    The end result matters, not the issue that was supposed to be fixed (e.g. cosmetic, stability or security).

    If the end result is a machine that has been broken by an update, most users won't care what the update was supposed to be for.
    Either you're being deliberately obtuse here, or you really don't understand what Heartbleed was... It was a bug in the SSL stack that had been around, literally for over a decade... that nobody had noticed until someone discovered it and started exploiting it. I really fail to understand how this applies to this scenario at all. I suggest you actually do a little research on these things before you start arguing about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    I knew someone would nitpick that despite saying more "looking" not more people looking.

    Telemetry is of no use if an update causes telemetry to stop working because:
    Not true at all, Telemetry can tell them if the update was downloaded, and the update began installation, but never finished either because the machine was offline or because it failed and telemetry told them that. Lack of telemetry is also telemetry.

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Sinofsky claimed that W8 dropped the Start Menu because (allegedly) W7 Telemetry showed that no one used the Start Menu.
    We know how that turned out.
    In that case, telemetry was used as a smokescreen to justify a change that MS had already decided they were going to introduce "come Hell or high water".
    It was true, but... sometimes people freak out about the loss of something they don't use... they fear the fact they might need it, not that they do need it, like a security blanket.

    Windows 8, much like Vista was more of a wake up call to everyone in the industry that the status quo is changing. It was never intended to be the destination, just one step along a path of many changes that would ultimately lead to a virtually unrecognizably different OS down the road.

    But first, they have to burn the security blankets....
    Last edited by Mystere; 20 May 2015 at 00:05.
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  2.    20 May 2015 #142
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 17,006
    Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro N, Win10 Home, Win10 Pro Insider Fast Ring, Windows 8.1 Pro, Ubuntu

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Just for information, A lot of people and oems have Telemetry turned off by default. Some if they knew about Telemetry might turn it on. I also think people have a concern with privacy when Telemetry is turned on. I am referring to Windows 7.
    This its true. Because telemetry was turned of by normal users Microsoft had to do with what they got and the end product was al that was wrong in Windows 8:
    Why Should I Send This Data?

    It’s actually a fairly good idea for you to send usage statistics and crash reports. Sending usage statistics ensures that developers know how people like you use the program and can make decisions with your usage patterns in mind. For example, when Microsoft removed the Start button from Windows 8, they said they did so because very few people actually used the Start button according to the usage statistics they gathered from the “Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program” in Windows 7. Some people theorized that perhaps only less-demanding beginner users had the Customer Experience Improvement Program enabled, while power users — who did use the Start button — were much more likely to disable it. Perhaps if more power users had had this feature enabled, Microsoft would have reconsidered removing the Start button — a clear error on their part, as they’re adding a Start button back to Windows 8.1.
    Source: http://www.howtogeek.com/166021/htg-...ld-i-let-them/
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  3.    20 May 2015 #143
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,483
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Just for information, A lot of people and oems have Telemetry turned off by default. Some if they knew about Telemetry might turn it on. I also think people have a concern with privacy when Telemetry is turned on. I am referring to Windows 7.
    Hi there. Would you please point me/us towards some references? I would tend to think it's quite the opposite.
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  4.    20 May 2015 #144
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Hi there. Would you please point me/us towards some references? I would tend to think it's quite the opposite.
    No links but from reading these & other forums that how I got the impression of it being turned off. My system came turned off. I do see the privacy concerns. This new younger generation seems not care about privacy or people wouldn't be using google chrome as much.
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  5.    20 May 2015 #145
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,483
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    No links but from reading these & other forums that how I got the impression of it being turned off.
    So your not sure what percentage has it turned on or off? I've researched this subject extensively before when brought up in 8F, but could never find that percentage. However, if we think about this, within the law of averages it really doesn't matter. Let's say 40% of users have it turned on. The law of averages says that the other 60% are basically performing the same things. Yes?

    Also, we geeks on forums are but a minority of total users. Can we base the total numbers on a minority? I don't think so.

    My system came turned off.
    Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program and Resulting Internet Communication in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2

    You weren't asked to turn it on upon 1st boot? I think that's what usually happens with OEM machines. It's that way upon a fresh install or upgrade.

    I do see the privacy concerns.
    Why? Do you think Microsoft is copying your private data? Major corporations or any one doing that would be in big doo doo if caught. I'd worry more about government entities before I'd worry about Microsoft.

    This new younger generation seems not care about privacy or people wouldn't be using google chrome as much.
    And just how many of the younger generation are using Chrome? Not meaning to put you down, grose, but you seem to surmise a lot. Let's see some hard data.
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  6.    20 May 2015 #146
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    So your not sure what percentage has it turned on or off? I've researched this subject extensively before when brought up in 8F, but could never find that percentage. However, if we think about this, within the law of averages it really doesn't matter. Let's say 40% of users have it turned on. The law of averages says that the other 60% are basically performing the same things. Yes?

    Also, we geeks on forums are but a minority of total users. Can we base the total numbers on a minority? I don't think so.



    Windows Customer Experience Improvement Program and Resulting Internet Communication in Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2

    You weren't asked to turn it on upon 1st boot? I think that's what usually happens with OEM machines. It's that way upon a fresh install or upgrade.



    Why? Do you think Microsoft is copying your private data? Major corporations or any one doing that would be in big doo doo if caught. I'd worry more about government entities before I'd worry about Microsoft.



    And just how many of the younger generation are using Chrome? Not meaning to put you down, grose, but you seem to surmise a lot. Let's see some hard data.
    No offense taken. The privacy issue I heard on the news, that younger generation is less concern with privacy because they use social media (twitter, Facebook, etc) more. I have a facebook account but only use it for looking up news stories from my local tv stations.


    Unfortunately, I don't remember for sure if windows 7 dell original restore cds asked me turn on or off telemetry data. I don't think the windows 7 dell re-installation disk asked me but I am not sure.
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  7.    20 May 2015 #147
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,483
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Telemetry also has to be interpreted correctly.

    Sinofsky claimed that W8 dropped the Start Menu because (allegedly) W7 Telemetry showed that no one used the Start Menu.

    We know how that turned out.

    In that case, telemetry was used as a smokescreen to justify a change that MS had already decided they were going to introduce "come Hell or high water".
    Are you saying Microsoft misinterpreted the numbers? You somewhat admitted that the telemetry was correct, but it seems you twisted it around accusing Sinofsky and/or others of fixing the data (your "allegedly") and using it is a smokescreen? Which is it?

    According to the telemetry the fact is that more users weren't using the Start Menu and the trajectory was that more more were using it less as time went on.

    To really bring this all home, let’s take a look at where people are pinning their apps. Figure 4 reveals that 85% of people have three or more items pinned to the taskbar compared to a mere 23% who have the same number pinned to the Start menu. Although the taskbar and Start menu have different pinned defaults, many people do customize both of them when they want to. The message is clear that the majority of people want most of their apps on the taskbar rather than having to dig into Start menu.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    We also know that enthusiasts in particular use their Windows 7 taskbar even more than the Start menu. Keyboard shortcuts like Win + <n> (where n corresponds to the sequence of an application icon on the taskbar) make it even faster for the keyboard experts to instantly launch and switch with the taskbar (and those shortcuts continue to work in Windows 8). When we visit IT pros, it’s not uncommon for us to see a taskbar filled with icons for standard corporate desktops. We even see items like Control Panel pinned to the taskbar to save people a trip to Start. Pinning is also increasing in popularly because you can now also pin websites to your taskbar with IE 9. Fortunately, there’s plenty of room on the taskbar—even at 1024x768 the taskbar can hold 22 small icons. Add the power of Jump lists, and theoretically, you can also have access to 220 files, folders, and sites at that same resolution! This means that for those who wish to just use desktop apps, the taskbar provides the room to quickly access the things you need every day without going to the Start menu.
    Source: Evolving the Start menu - Building Windows 8 - Site Home - MSDN Blogs


    Not sure about you, but I can't tell you how many desktop screens I've seen with icons plastered all over it. Where do you think they got the idea of the Start Screen? From thin air?

    Did it fit their mobile market business plan? Did it fit their plan of an OS across all devices? You bet it did. Perfect timing I guess.

    I think they did well with the Start Menu/Start Screen combo introduced in 10. A good compromise. Personally I don't think it's as good is the Start Screen/All apps in 8, but I think it'll do well for most.
    Last edited by HippsieGypsie; 21 May 2015 at 10:28.
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  8.    20 May 2015 #148
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
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    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Just for information, A lot of people and oems have Telemetry turned off by default. Some if they knew about Telemetry might turn it on. I also think people have a concern with privacy when Telemetry is turned on. I am referring to Windows 7.
    Agreed.
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  9.    21 May 2015 #149
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Either you're being deliberately obtuse here, or you really don't understand what Heartbleed was... It was a bug in the SSL stack that had been around, literally for over a decade... that nobody had noticed until someone discovered it and started exploiting it.
    Thank you for confirming the exact point I was alluding to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    I really fail to understand how this applies to this scenario at all. I suggest you actually do a little research on these things before you start arguing about them.
    The fact that you have confirmed the exact point I was alluding to and then tried to attack me with it, indicates that you are the one who has is experiencing difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Are you saying Microsoft misinterpreted the numbers? You somewhat admitted that the telemetry was correct, but it seems you twisted it around accusing Sinofsky and/or others of fixing the data (your "allegedly") and using it is a smokescreen? Which is it?
    It is a fact that W7 has a telemetry feature/function that reports information to MS (CEIP).

    The telemetry may be 100% accurate (about the items it reports on).
    In that case, I see two explanations about the Start Menu mystery:
    1. Giving MS the benefit of the doubt - I conclude that MS misinterpreted the data.
    2. Treating MS like any other Corporation (or politician) - I conclude that the data was cherry-picked to justify a pre-determined position.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    According to the telemetry the fact is that more users weren't using the Start Menu and the trajectory was that more more were using it less as time went on.
    Those 2 graphs are a good example.
    They:
    • Do not indicate how many times users opened the Start Menu
    • Only indicate that users weren't pinning programs to the Start Menu (they seem to prefer the Taskbar)
    • Do not indicate if users were relying on the MRU section of the Start Menu
    • Do not indicate how many items were dumped on the desktop

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Not sure about you, but I can't tell you how many desktop screens I've seen with icons plastered all over it.
    I've seen too many.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Where do you think they got the idea of the Start Screen? From thin air?

    Did it fit their mobile market business plan? Did it fit their plan of an OS across all devices? You bet it did. Perfect timing I guess.
    I think they simply "copied the style" of Android and Apple mobile devices, which had already been on the market for years.

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    I think they did well with the Start Menu/Start Screen combo introduced in 10. A good compromise. Personally I don't think it's as good is the Start Screen/All apps in 8, but I think it'll do well for most.
    I didn't say anything (good or bad) about the W10 Start Menu.

    The W10 Start Menu indicates, MS has finally implemented something similar, to the ideas that were suggested by W8 Start Screen critics, before W8's release (i.e. a different selectable system for mobile users and desktop users).
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  10.    21 May 2015 #150
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
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    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Thank you for confirming the exact point I was alluding to.
    How is that the exact point you were alluding to? You were talking about patches that brick the OS, and then mentioned Heartbleed as being one.
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