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  1.    29 Jan 2016 #51
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCursor View Post
    Microsoft is responsible for GWX failing, Microsoft uses GWX to guarantee that the upgrade will work on that particular computer.
    Let's think this through a bit. Who created the drivers? MS or GWX. And who is ultimately responsible for the functionality of the drivers.. MS or GWX??

    Is MS even capable of taking the time to test out every driver that is shipped to them for instillation??

    From my perspective MS can't test every driver that comes their way and they can't be held responsible for GWX sending a faulty product no matter what GWX claims. I doubt MS has the time or resources to test each and every driver that is sent to them for instillation.

    Well.. that's it for me.. life calls
    Have a nice day
    Jeff
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  2.    29 Jan 2016 #52
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    Quote Originally Posted by unifex View Post
    For me the PC is a tool as well. However, my tasks are somewhat different. As a couple of examples, sometimes I'm doing calculations taking 100% CPU resources and sometimes I make presentations with a laptop. In both cases it's very important that the OS does not do anything else, but the task I set it to do. That means no updating, maintenance, scans, etc.

    Unfortunately I see very often that people come onstage to give their talk only to see the message from Windows that a reboot is necessary or an update is important. Somehow, Windows does not understand that if the user is making a presentation, no extra information is needed onscreen right at that moment.

    One other thing Windows completely fails at is the concept of the PC being idle. If I set the machine up for a heavy calculation and leave it to work for a couple of days, it's not idle, it's calculating. However, Windows defines "idle" as "no user interaction", meaning no input from the keyboard or mouse. This is completely ridiculous. If I use the machine for computation, I very often do not touch it until the calculation is finished, which may take days. However by default Windows will interfere with all kinds of automated tasks and ever will go to sleep if I do not move the mouse every half hour or so.

    So from this you can guess what "tinkering" I'm doing. It has nothing to do with how the GUI looks like. What I do with the OS is to very carefully examine all automated tasks that may run at random time points and either reschedule them or turn off the automation (e.g. I do not need the OS to do any automated defragmentation while the machine is calculating, so I turn off automated defrag task, etc.). Similarly, automatic Windows updates are turned off - I check for updates manually. Windows Defender is off - I use another security suite (ESET). And so on, so forth. All in all, I need to go through Tasks, Group Policy, Services, Updates, and so on. It takes a while to set it all up. Windows Updates that introduce extra telemetry do not help, but since I do not install any updates automatically and always check what each updates does before installing, I manage to avoid all that stuff (e.g., I never had GWX installed and so it does not bother me, no Windows 10 files downloading automatically, etc.)
    Sorry if my comment came off as a bit derogatory.. I just wanted to find out what you did with your PC to adjust it to meet your needs. Later on I can give this a good read.
    Thanks for posting
    Have a nice day

    Again,., life calls.
    Jeff
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  3.    29 Jan 2016 #53
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 3,808
    10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyJ View Post
    What?? How is MS responsible for GWX failing in testing their drivers properly?? GWX said they would work and they failed.. they didn't work. So.. let's point the finger at MS?? The issue is that GWX didn't do their job properly and I can agree what they did didn't help out MS one bit.
    GWX is a Microsoft program.

    It (supposedly) checks that the upgrade will work and flags drivers (or whatever) that might cause the upgrade to fail. There are countless examples where either the GWX program didn't flag a driver (normally the upgrade fails after first reboot in this case) or it did flag a driver but you can just ignore it anyway and upgrade.

    MS aren't responsible for drivers but if they write a program (GWX) to check that another of their own programs (the upgrade) will work then they should write it better.

    In actual fact not only could they have written it better, they already have. Setup.exe already includes this "what if" switch.
    Code:
    start /Wait SETUP.EXE /Auto Upgrade /Quiet /NoReboot /DynamicUpdate Disable /Compat ScanOnly
    echo %errorlevel%
    You can then look in setupact.log and see exactly if there will be a problem.

    So the problem really is that the GWX program is rubbish and upgrades are based (or pushed) on incorrect information which MS already knows (or could know if they looked at the output of another of their own programs).

    So really, if the team who wrote the program to test if upgrade would be OK could talk to the team that wrote upgrade then it would all be fine
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  4.    29 Jan 2016 #54
    Join Date : Apr 2015
    Posts : 169
    Windows 10

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyJ View Post
    Who created the drivers? MS or GWX. And who is ultimately responsible for the functionality of the drivers.. MS or GWX??

    Is MS even capable of taking the time to test out every driver that is shipped to them for instillation??

    From my perspective MS can't test every driver that comes their way and they can't be held responsible for GWX sending a faulty product no matter what GWX claims. I doubt MS has the time or resources to test each and every driver that is sent to them for instillation.
    You don't seem to realize that GWX has a built-in compatibility tester that tests the entire computer, including drivers, BIOS, everything. It then gives a guarantee that that individual computer can be upgraded to Windows 10, a guarantee that is sometimes broken.

    Of course Microsoft is responsible for the broken guarantee.

    Edit: Ah, somebody was quicker
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  5.    29 Jan 2016 #55
    Join Date : Apr 2015
    Posts : 169
    Windows 10

    Quote Originally Posted by unifex View Post
    Unfortunately I see very often that people come onstage to give their talk only to see the message from Windows that a reboot is necessary or an update is important. Somehow, Windows does not understand that if the user is making a presentation, no extra information is needed onscreen right at that moment.
    I bought the cheapest laptop that I could find and only load it with the PowerPoint file and the PowerPoint viewer, and disabled everything else. Works well
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    29 Jan 2016 #56
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Posts : 627
    Windows 10 Pro Insider Preview (14971)

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyJ View Post
    What?? How is MS responsible for GWX failing in testing their drivers properly?? GWX said they would work and they failed.. they didn't work. So.. let's point the finger at MS?? The issue is that GWX didn't do their job properly and I can agree what they did didn't help out MS one bit.
    Umm, GWX is a MS product, an integral part of the overly-aggressive update campaign. It is an official part of the upgrade process software, written by and totally under the control of MS. So yes, by all means, let's point the finger at MS :-)
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    29 Jan 2016 #57
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 3,808
    10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by FrozenCursor View Post
    It then gives a guarantee that that individual computer can be upgraded to Windows 10.
    Are you sure about that?

    I didn't bother reading it but most EULA tend not to include any phrases like "this is guaranteed to work".

    More likely to have phrases like "this excludes all implied warranties and conditions, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose". That means "hopefully works" I think.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  8.    29 Jan 2016 #58
    Join Date : May 2015
    Posts : 112

    Quote Originally Posted by BunnyJ View Post
    I agree with the point that MS has been a bit aggressive with the upgrade offer. They should have had a way to allow users to just opt out and not get the offer again after the first time they got it. That way everyone might have been happy with the process.
    Thank you, that has been the real point of this whole discussion. The root cause of the "drivers debate" and "upgrade debate" is that Microsoft does not want to take no for an answer with its GWX marketing tool. Human nature is sooner or later you will upgrade either to get the thing to shut up, or because you feel at some point you must really be missing out. At least this will be true for the majority of users who are not tech savvy. You thus end up with the issues that are discussed on the boards and around the internet.

    If Microsoft had pushed the tool on your desktop and the user could choose "opt out", and the tool uninstalled that would be fine. In fact, I would argue they would have a case for GWX being useful on Windows 7 machines around June of 2019 when extended support is going to go away in six months. It could remind users of that and tell them they will need to upgrade.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  9.    29 Jan 2016 #59
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 236
    7, 10TP

    Quote Originally Posted by lx07 View Post
    Are you sure about that?

    I didn't bother reading it but most EULA tend not to include any phrases like "this is guaranteed to work".

    More likely to have phrases like "this excludes all implied warranties and conditions, including those of merchantability, fitness for a particular purpose". which means "hopefully works" I think.
    Practically nobody bothers to read the EULA since it's too long and written in legalese. In fact, I have read somewhere that if the EULA is longer than something (already unreasonable, 40 pages or so), then we consumers are legally not expected to read and comply (even if we hit "I agree" button to proceed with the installation). However, all disclaimers aside, the GWX program announces to the user that the PC is ready for Windows 10. That might not be a guarantee from a legal standpoint (i.e. you would not stand a chance in court with the claim that it broke your PC), in practice people take it at face value. You could argue that they get what they deserve, but in reality we're talking about vast majority of the population and the fact that all manufacturers including MS know that that's how people behave. That's why you see those ads with huge letters promising you anything you want being accompanied by "fine print" containing disclaimers that practically relieve the manufacturers of any responsibility in case the product advertised does not fulfill its promise.

    My own disclaimer here is that I have never allowed GWX to be installed on any of my machines and hence I'm not speaking out of first-hand experience .
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  10.    29 Jan 2016 #60
    Join Date : Apr 2015
    Posts : 169
    Windows 10

    GWX is more assertive than that. If you click on the "This computer is compatible with Windows 10" link, you see further assertive details, such as "all your apps will work", etc.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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