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  1.    27 Nov 2014 #111
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post

    Not having a difficult time with it at all whatsoever, Walt. Quite the contrary. I think itís you having a rather difficult time understanding the Classic Shell problem. Ivo explained his understanding of it, of which I see you reject. If not that, then MS is blocking Classic Shell for they want the data of users running their Start Menu supplied, not another. I think you should read the agreement again. They can do pretty much what they want, for itís not a final release.

    Might as well address this while Iím at it > Even if it is a final release, where is it written in stone that MS needs to write an OS for third party programs to run on? They actually do it as a courtesy. It could be pure MS and that is all. Isnít that what Apple does? MS didnít approach Apple to change hardware or rewrite code because MS Office doesnít run on its Mac hardware architecture or OS X. Quite the contrary. It was MS that had to write an Office specifically to run on Macs with OS X. Talk about anti competition. Where were the Feds then? And I donít want to hear that Apple only has a small piece of the pie. Itís still anti competition according to the Feds way of thinking concerning a product no matter how popular it is.
    HippsieGypsie,

    I maybe a little . To me Macs and PCs were never suppose to be compatible. I am thinking software wise. When I got to the store to buy software. One software says in runs on a windows pc. Another software says it runs on both pc and mac, I look at another software it say it runs on mac. No offense meant to you HippsieGypsie, I see it is up to the developer of the software what operating system(s) their program will work with. I don't expect the developer to support newer operating systems. Now, I do expect Microsoft if they change a code in an update that causes a 3rd party program not to work. Microsoft needs to do the patching not the developer. One good example is the hp printer driver. Microsoft actually did a patch for windows 7 and above-HP Deskjet 3740 Series (LiDiL). I would expect the same from Apple. Just for your information the U.S. department of justice has gone after Apple for somethings but not for what you were talking about or if they did I cant find it.
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  2.    27 Nov 2014 #112
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Czech Republic
    Posts : 83
    Windows 10 TP x64

    I think that Microsoft patching a HP driver is a bit more complicted - was the patch created by Microsoft, or by HP and then just distributed via Windows Update? It's not the same thing. Microsoft creating a patch would be needed, if the OS itself is broken, however it is not the same as if something in the OS gets reorganized/reprogrammed between OS versions, so that a 3rd party driver stops working. And to me, Classic Shell (and e.g. most of Stardock's apps) seem to be much closer to OS, drivers etc. than Thunderbird or AcdSee, if you know what I mean (sorry for my limited vocabulary:-( )
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  3.    27 Nov 2014 #113

    Hi there

    Not wishing to be the "5th" player in a String Quartet here but going to add my take on all this,

    The writer of the OS has 100% control over what works on it and what doesn't -- in general it's GOOD business sense to ensure popular hardware does such as Printers etc and in general Ms gives good assistance to manufacturers writing both Hardware drivers and Software drivers and issues a decent set of API's which should be used so the OS isn't broken.

    If a 3rd party software app uses an INTERNAL part of the OS / kernel that changes either due to the functionality being removed / replaced or the module is installed in a different part of the kernel it's up to the DEVELOPER of the third party application to correct it and not Ms.

    That's why some companies take YEARS on dveloping new releases of application software to run on supported platforms -- such as SAP for example.
    You can always stick with the OLD release until (and if) the devloper fixes the problem.

    I believe anyway that a program like Classic Shell -- while good for the release it was mainly used on (W8 / W8.1) is now essentially redundant as Ms have bought back that type of menuing facility. Classic Shell might be able to add some new features but I'd suggest to IVO (and no disrepect to often hard working developers - especially when they aren't getting paid) that he concentrates on some other new feature of windows that users might want and doesn't currently exist.

    Users of these programs should also realise that any programs that don't behave as "normal application programs" i.e use undocumented OS calls or go outside the published API's are always likely to stop working any time an OS is updated. That's the whol point of API's - the application writer can use those interfaces whatever change the Ms makes to the OS internally.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  4.    27 Nov 2014 #114
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 34,843
    Dual boot Windows 10 FCU Pro x 64 & current Insider 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    HippsieGypsie,

    I maybe a little . To me Macs and PCs were never suppose to be compatible. I am thinking software wise.
    Yes, we all know itís incompatible and has been since day one. Just using it as an extreme example of the way some people and the Feds think about MS blocking software just because MS has majority of OS market share. Some call it a monopoly. Call it what they may. I think they got that way because of many reasons, one of them wasnít blocking software. Itís quite the opposite. They made sure most things ran on it. They want people to use the OS. Itís good business sense as Jimbo points out. One program is blocked and some are all up in arms over it.
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  5.    27 Nov 2014 #115
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 34,843
    Dual boot Windows 10 FCU Pro x 64 & current Insider 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Rickkins View Post
    I have that, but I am unable to change the settings.(which is not really an issue, because I'm ok where it's set.)((to participate))
    Yes, I now see that it's blocked in 10. I never bothered to check for I always opt in. It's also in the Insider agreement that we opt in.
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  6.    27 Nov 2014 #116
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Sorry Jimbo, quoted wrong person



    Quote Originally Posted by Olivir2014 View Post
    I think that Microsoft patching a HP driver is a bit more complicted - was the patch created by Microsoft, or by HP and then just distributed via Windows Update? It's not the same thing. Microsoft creating a patch would be needed, if the OS itself is broken, however it is not the same as if something in the OS gets reorganized/reprogrammed between OS versions, so that a 3rd party driver stops working. And to me, Classic Shell (and e.g. most of Stardock's apps) seem to be much closer to OS, drivers etc. than Thunderbird or AcdSee, if you know what I mean (sorry for my limited vocabulary:-( )
    Olivir2014
    I don't know who patches the driver Microsoft or HP. It is available on windows catalog if you want to look at it. I do know HP won't let you download it on their website. If you download make sure you download both choices, otherwise you might download the wrong architect.
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  7.    27 Nov 2014 #117
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 773
    Windows 7

    jimbo45 has made some good points.

    Microsoft, like any OS developer, must have rules that application developers must follow to ensure reliability and compatibility with future updates and versions of the OS. Much like governments create rules (known as laws) that people are required to obey. Developers often find these rules constraining. Sometimes developers violate these rules, even if only unintentionally. Sometimes developers make unwarranted assumptions about the hardware or OS on which their product will run. Software may be developed using the English language but without considering the implications of using another language. The possibilities go on and on.

    Any change made in the OS can break applications. Adding a new feature, cleaning up the code (to aid future maintenance), or even fixing a bug, can and has broken applications. Sometimes developers create a workaround for a bug, which when fixed may break the application. Many bugs cannot be fixed because doing so would break popular applications.

    The only way that 100% compatibility with newer operating systems can be guaranteed is to never change anything. That of course makes it impossible to create a new OS version or even an update.

    Microsoft developers are painfully aware of these compatibility issues and make significant changes only after careful consideration. Maintaining compatibility is hard, often very hard.

    The problem is particularly serious with programs like Classic Shell that must work closely with the OS to change it's normal behavior. It is even more complex when the OS is in a state of development, as is the case with Windows 10. According to the Classic Shell forum developers are not even looking into these compatibility issues at this time. Any fix might break with the next update.

    Microsoft developers are aware of this but take no active part. Maintaining compatibility with Windows 10 is the responsibility of the application developers. Responsible developers do not question this.
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  8.    27 Nov 2014 #118
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,569
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Adequate


    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Itís good business sense as Jimbo points out. One program is blocked and some are all up in arms over it.
    I suspect that it reminds people of the way that MS stripped the Start Menu code out of W8, after they discovered people were disabling Metro (W8 DP).
    The program that people are up-in-arms about, just so happens to be the program that allowed them to disable Metro in W8.

    It's probably just a coincidence.

    However I can understand why people are suspicious, especially when you consider issues like, you can't provide feedback (with the Feedback App) unless you convert a W10 Local account to a W10 "Report to MS" account.

    In any case, the new Start Menu performs its function adequately.

    If you don't use any of the Apps, you can run a PowerShell script to purge them and then the Start Menu is more manageable.
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  9.    27 Nov 2014 #119
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 120
    Windows 8

    On W10 32 bit, I have managed to add a shortcut for a DOS program to the Classic Shell start menu, but so far I have failed to add this shortcut to the regular W10 start menu. Is there a way to overcome this problem?
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  10.    28 Nov 2014 #120
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Nothern Ohio
    Posts : 626
    Windows 7/64 Professional

    I'm quite sure Microsoft works with major vendors like H.P. and others on such things as driver problems.

    Microsoft is fully aware of the major vendors and has been working with them for decades.

    Microsoft is also fully aware that their are huge amount of 3rd party program that just about everybody uses and
    programs that some use.

    Folks in my opinion Microsoft can't deal with all of them at the same time. Their is probably a priority to which ones are handled first, second, and down the list. I think that is completely understandable.

    Microsoft is going to work with the big boys first; like Adobe, H.P., Mozilla, Chrome ect. ect.
    I noticed it only took a short time to fix the problem with Intel Toolbox. Intel is a huge player so they are closer to the top of the list. Makes sense to me. It will take time to get to all the 3rd party vendors because their are millions of them.
    Some of them won't cut the mustard; oh well. I will just use a program that does.
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