Microsoft Blocks Classic Shell in Windows 10 Build 9879  

HippsieGypsie said:

Not having a difficult time with it at all whatsoever, Walt. Quite the contrary. I think it’s you having a rather difficult time understanding the Classic Shell problem. Ivo explained his understanding of it, of which I see you reject. If not that, then MS is blocking Classic Shell for they want the data of users running their Start Menu supplied, not another. I think you should read the agreement again. They can do pretty much what they want, for it’s not a final release.

Might as well address this while I’m at it > Even if it is a final release, where is it written in stone that MS needs to write an OS for third party programs to run on? They actually do it as a courtesy. It could be pure MS and that is all. Isn’t that what Apple does? MS didn’t approach Apple to change hardware or rewrite code because MS Office doesn’t run on its Mac hardware architecture or OS X. Quite the contrary. It was MS that had to write an Office specifically to run on Macs with OS X. Talk about anti competition. Where were the Feds then? And I don’t want to hear that Apple only has a small piece of the pie. It’s still anti competition according to the Feds way of thinking concerning a product no matter how popular it is.

HippsieGypsie,

I maybe a little . To me Macs and PCs were never suppose to be compatible. I am thinking software wise. When I got to the store to buy software. One software says in runs on a windows pc. Another software says it runs on both pc and mac, I look at another software it say it runs on mac. No offense meant to you HippsieGypsie, I see it is up to the developer of the software what operating system(s) their program will work with. I don't expect the developer to support newer operating systems. Now, I do expect Microsoft if they change a code in an update that causes a 3rd party program not to work. Microsoft needs to do the patching not the developer. One good example is the hp printer driver. Microsoft actually did a patch for windows 7 and above-HP Deskjet 3740 Series (LiDiL). I would expect the same from Apple. Just for your information the U.S. department of justice has gone after Apple for somethings but not for what you were talking about or if they did I cant find it.

I think that Microsoft patching a HP driver is a bit more complicted - was the patch created by Microsoft, or by HP and then just distributed via Windows Update? It's not the same thing. Microsoft creating a patch would be needed, if the OS itself is broken, however it is not the same as if something in the OS gets reorganized/reprogrammed between OS versions, so that a 3rd party driver stops working. And to me, Classic Shell (and e.g. most of Stardock's apps) seem to be much closer to OS, drivers etc. than Thunderbird or AcdSee, if you know what I mean (sorry for my limited vocabulary:-( )

Hi there

Not wishing to be the "5th" player in a String Quartet here but going to add my take on all this,

The writer of the OS has 100% control over what works on it and what doesn't -- in general it's GOOD business sense to ensure popular hardware does such as Printers etc and in general Ms gives good assistance to manufacturers writing both Hardware drivers and Software drivers and issues a decent set of API's which should be used so the OS isn't broken.

If a 3rd party software app uses an INTERNAL part of the OS / kernel that changes either due to the functionality being removed / replaced or the module is installed in a different part of the kernel it's up to the DEVELOPER of the third party application to correct it and not Ms.

That's why some companies take YEARS on dveloping new releases of application software to run on supported platforms -- such as SAP for example.
You can always stick with the OLD release until (and if) the devloper fixes the problem.

I believe anyway that a program like Classic Shell -- while good for the release it was mainly used on (W8 / W8.1) is now essentially redundant as Ms have bought back that type of menuing facility. Classic Shell might be able to add some new features but I'd suggest to IVO (and no disrepect to often hard working developers - especially when they aren't getting paid) that he concentrates on some other new feature of windows that users might want and doesn't currently exist.

Users of these programs should also realise that any programs that don't behave as "normal application programs" i.e use undocumented OS calls or go outside the published API's are always likely to stop working any time an OS is updated. That's the whol point of API's - the application writer can use those interfaces whatever change the Ms makes to the OS internally.

Cheers
jimbo

groze said:

HippsieGypsie,

I maybe a little . To me Macs and PCs were never suppose to be compatible. I am thinking software wise.

Yes, we all know it’s incompatible and has been since day one. Just using it as an extreme example of the way some people and the Feds think about MS blocking software just because MS has majority of OS market share. Some call it a monopoly. Call it what they may. I think they got that way because of many reasons, one of them wasn’t blocking software. It’s quite the opposite. They made sure most things ran on it. They want people to use the OS. It’s good business sense as Jimbo points out. One program is blocked and some are all up in arms over it.

Rickkins said:

I have that, but I am unable to change the settings.(which is not really an issue, because I'm ok where it's set.)((to participate))

Yes, I now see that it's blocked in 10. I never bothered to check for I always opt in. It's also in the Insider agreement that we opt in.

Sorry Jimbo, quoted wrong person

Olivir2014 said:

I think that Microsoft patching a HP driver is a bit more complicted - was the patch created by Microsoft, or by HP and then just distributed via Windows Update? It's not the same thing. Microsoft creating a patch would be needed, if the OS itself is broken, however it is not the same as if something in the OS gets reorganized/reprogrammed between OS versions, so that a 3rd party driver stops working. And to me, Classic Shell (and e.g. most of Stardock's apps) seem to be much closer to OS, drivers etc. than Thunderbird or AcdSee, if you know what I mean (sorry for my limited vocabulary:-( )

Olivir2014
I don't know who patches the driver Microsoft or HP. It is available on windows catalog if you want to look at it. I do know HP won't let you download it on their website. If you download make sure you download both choices, otherwise you might download the wrong architect.

jimbo45 has made some good points.

Microsoft, like any OS developer, must have rules that application developers must follow to ensure reliability and compatibility with future updates and versions of the OS. Much like governments create rules (known as laws) that people are required to obey. Developers often find these rules constraining. Sometimes developers violate these rules, even if only unintentionally. Sometimes developers make unwarranted assumptions about the hardware or OS on which their product will run. Software may be developed using the English language but without considering the implications of using another language. The possibilities go on and on.

Any change made in the OS can break applications. Adding a new feature, cleaning up the code (to aid future maintenance), or even fixing a bug, can and has broken applications. Sometimes developers create a workaround for a bug, which when fixed may break the application. Many bugs cannot be fixed because doing so would break popular applications.

The only way that 100% compatibility with newer operating systems can be guaranteed is to never change anything. That of course makes it impossible to create a new OS version or even an update.

Microsoft developers are painfully aware of these compatibility issues and make significant changes only after careful consideration. Maintaining compatibility is hard, often very hard.

The problem is particularly serious with programs like Classic Shell that must work closely with the OS to change it's normal behavior. It is even more complex when the OS is in a state of development, as is the case with Windows 10. According to the Classic Shell forum developers are not even looking into these compatibility issues at this time. Any fix might break with the next update.

Microsoft developers are aware of this but take no active part. Maintaining compatibility with Windows 10 is the responsibility of the application developers. Responsible developers do not question this.

On W10 32 bit, I have managed to add a shortcut for a DOS program to the Classic Shell start menu, but so far I have failed to add this shortcut to the regular W10 start menu. Is there a way to overcome this problem?