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  1.    25 Nov 2014 #101
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 513
    10x64

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivo View Post

    That's right. While Microsoft spends a great deal of effort to preserve backwards compatibility, it is mostly for software that plays by the rules and uses only documented OS features. Programs like Classic Shell or CPU-Z use undocumented and unsupported tricks.
    Not relevant, I'm afraid. 75% of all the third-party programs in existence, if not more, occasionally use "undocumented and unsupported tricks." Nothing new or different about that. And plenty of them are running fine right now in Win10TP.

    Again, CPU-Z installs and runs perfectly in my 9879 build once the name of the executable is changed. This tells me quite convincingly that this little hardware reading program is actually just as compatible in Win10TP as it was in 8.1, where it ran fine for years over multiple versions--just as, I might add, your own program did for me--in Win8.x/8.1.

    There is no basis in reason or logic for Microsoft to block as incompatible, merely by name of the executable, third party programs it has not tested for such incompatibility. I mean, who thinks "We think it might not be compatible, but we don't really know, so we are going to block it anyway," is an acceptable rationale? Very amateurish & clumsy.

    Most people do not buy and run an OS simply to use that OS and nothing else. 95% of the software I've used every day for years (forever, actually) is third-party software not developed by Microsoft. As you note, backwards-compatibility is very important for Microsoft, and they test for it *constantly.* (Even if HG thinks they never do...)

    This is a small issue, certainly. But still an important one--I would never have suspected Microsoft of intentionally blocking programs from running in the preview without having tested them--if CPU-Z was actually incompatible with the TP then I would expect it to fail to install and run *regardless* of what its executable is named.
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  2.    25 Nov 2014 #102
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 745
    Windows 7

    If Microsoft blocks a program you can be sure they have tested the software, extensively. They also have access to telemetry data from users inside and outside Microsoft, plus feedback from the Windows 10 insider program.

    Software compatibility is a complex thing. Many applications will install without issue but fail completely when run. Others will normally not install but run flawlessly if tricked into installing. Symptoms of incompatibility vary greatly, ranging from the extreme to the very subtle.

    Programs like CPU-Z are a difficult case. When possible (the user has sufficient privileges) CPU-Z uses direct hardware access to obtain some of it's information. Such access is normally barred to all except some OS components and device drivers. Microsoft has established many rules that developers must follow if the software is to run reliably. Sometimes the rules must change in a new OS. At user level where all normal programs operate the rules are enforced by the OS. But in the world where device drivers operate the rules are more like a gentlemens agreement where all are expected to comply but this cannot be enforced. The results of a problem here are unpredictable.

    The reliability of CPU-Z is very dependent on hardware and the OS that controls it.
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  3.    25 Nov 2014 #103
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,534
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Telemetry


    Quote Originally Posted by LMiller7 View Post
    If Microsoft blocks a program you can be sure they have tested the software, extensively. They also have access to telemetry data from users inside and outside Microsoft, plus feedback from the Windows 10 insider program.
    One thing ... MS claimed that their W7 telemetry told them that "no one" used the W7 Start Menu.

    We all know how that worked out for W8 and it has led to this very thread.
    In fact, the telemetry-based fiasco has "forced" MS to re-introduce the Start Menu.
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  4.    25 Nov 2014 #104
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LMiller7 View Post
    If Microsoft blocks a program you can be sure they have tested the software, extensively. They also have access to telemetry data from users inside and outside Microsoft, plus feedback from the Windows 10 insider program.
    One thing ... MS claimed that their W7 telemetry told them that "no one" used the W7 Start Menu.

    We all know how that worked out for W8 and it has led to this very thread.
    In fact, the telemetry-based fiasco has "forced" MS to re-introduce the Start Menu.
    lehnerus2000,

    How would Microsoft be able to tell if I am using the start menu or not in windows 7? Did we agree to Microsoft using telemetry data in the Windows 7 EULA?
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  5.    25 Nov 2014 #105
    Join Date : Feb 2014
    Posts : 372
    Windows 10

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LMiller7 View Post
    If Microsoft blocks a program you can be sure they have tested the software, extensively. They also have access to telemetry data from users inside and outside Microsoft, plus feedback from the Windows 10 insider program.
    One thing ... MS claimed that their W7 telemetry told them that "no one" used the W7 Start Menu.

    We all know how that worked out for W8 and it has led to this very thread.
    In fact, the telemetry-based fiasco has "forced" MS to re-introduce the Start Menu.
    lehnerus2000,

    How would Microsoft be able to tell if I am using the start menu or not in windows 7? Did we agree to Microsoft using telemetry data in the Windows 7 EULA?
    Well they wouldn't, and they didn't. But they did make that claim, to justify the removal of it and it's replacement by the start screen.
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  6.    26 Nov 2014 #106
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,534
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by lehnerus2000 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by LMiller7 View Post
    If Microsoft blocks a program you can be sure they have tested the software, extensively. They also have access to telemetry data from users inside and outside Microsoft, plus feedback from the Windows 10 insider program.
    One thing ... MS claimed that their W7 telemetry told them that "no one" used the W7 Start Menu.

    We all know how that worked out for W8 and it has led to this very thread.
    In fact, the telemetry-based fiasco has "forced" MS to re-introduce the Start Menu.
    lehnerus2000,

    How would Microsoft be able to tell if I am using the start menu or not in windows 7? Did we agree to Microsoft using telemetry data in the Windows 7 EULA?
    I don't know how it actually works.

    It's an option during the installation.
    When you install Windows, you can choose to participate in a customer feedback program.

    You can probably also enable/disable it after the installation has finished (I don't know where though).
    I'm sure someone here knows the procedure.

    Note:
    IIRC, the W10 TP builds don't allow you to disable the feedback.
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  7.    26 Nov 2014 #107
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,407
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    It's not a customer feedback program per se. It's data collection of how one uses the/a system.

    How it works:

    Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

    Not sure with 10 yet, but in 8.1 type “customer” (and “experience improvement program” if need be) into Charms Search. Press the result circled and a configuration pane will open. I always opt in.


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  8.    26 Nov 2014 #108
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,552
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    It's not a customer feedback program per se. It's data collection of how one uses the/a system.

    How it works:

    Microsoft Customer Experience Improvement Program

    Not sure with 10 yet, but in 8.1 type “customer” (and “experience improvement program” if need be) into Charms Search. Press the result circled and a configuration pane will open. I always opt in.


    Click image for larger version. 

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    It is also in windows 7 as well.

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  9.    26 Nov 2014 #109
    Join Date : Feb 2014
    Posts : 372
    Windows 10

    I have that, but I am unable to change the settings.(which is not really an issue, because I'm ok where it's set.)((to participate))
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  10.    26 Nov 2014 #110
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,407
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    Quote Originally Posted by waltc View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    I hardly doubt MS would ever state that, especially within a beta. Perhaps “Most programs will run”, but not all. Please reference where you come up with at least some of this stuff.
    Heh...Somebody rolled off the wrong side of the bed this morning... Allow me to put your doubts to rest...
    I got and get out of bed just fine, Walt. It’s just lately I’ve had to contend with mass shootings, cops that justifiably shoot kids, unjustifiable wars, and some (I can’t say-s) in the world.

    Firstly, Walt, please don’t attempt talk down to me. I may be ignorant to a lot of tech, but I’m not stupid sorting out fact from fiction. I highly doubt you’re going to be the one to “put my doubts to rest….”

    Before you install Windows Technical Preview - Microsoft Windows

    And here's the pertinent text--from Microsoft:

    What does it work with?

    Technical Preview should work with the same devices and programs that work with Windows 8.1, but you might need to update or reinstall some of them.
    Drivers for basic functions like storage, networking, input, and display come with Windows. These drivers allow you to complete the Windows installation and connect to the Internet. You might be able to get more drivers from Windows Update.
    For compatibility info, see the Windows 8.1 Compatibility Center.
    I would have provided the links in the first place--except that I thought everyone who's installed the TP would have been familiar with that material already. Yep, it's true: Microsoft officially advises you to use the 8.1 Compatibility Advisor to test for compatibility with Win10TP.
    Walt, I’m not the only one that reads your posts. Looks to me like you assumed “everyone who's installed the TP would have been familiar with that material already”. And yes, Walt, I’ve read all the pertinent material before joining and installing. I’ve been around the block more than once.

    OK, you’re correct and that’s what it says, but Should work with” is not the absolute you were attempting to justify the always-worked-before connotation in your prior post. There’s a big difference. "Should" doesn't necessarily mean that it will.

    What does Compatibility Center have to do with program compatibility in 10 concerning me or anyone really that is already running 8.1? They’re meaning to run it in a prior OSs 7 and 8. I already know 8.1 is compatible with my Acer tower and I know all my programs I use within it work because, Walt, I’ve been using them for a few years now and all run fine. Therefore, why would I have to scan my computer with a compatibility scan for 7 and 8? If you’re speaking specifically of Classic Shell, well Walt, I don’t see the correlation with the assistant other than if one is running 7 or 8. And if it's running fine in 8.1 why would the scan report that it's not fit for 8.1, therefore not fit for 10?

    I don’t, nor have I ever used Classic Shell. In fact I run all MS products but some Modern apps and CCleaner. CCleaner I’ve pretty much given up on. As a result of not using third party I have very minor problems with my system.

    From Upgrade Assistant: FAQ - Windows Help

    •If you're running Windows 7, tap or click Download Windows 8.1 Upgrade Assistant to get a compatibility report, and then you'll see optional steps to buy, download, and install Windows 8.1. For more info, see Upgrade to Windows 8.1 from Windows 7.

    •If you're running Windows 8, tap or click Download Windows 8.1 Upgrade Assistant to check compatibility, and then you'll be redirected to the Windows Store for the free update to Windows 8.1. For more info, see Update to Windows 8.1 from Windows 8.
    You'd think Microsoft would at least *test* a program before declaring that it is "incompatible," wouldn't you...?
    Again > Where do you come up with this stuff?
    Uh, HG...when the program refuses to install, and Win10 TP pops up with a warning box that tells you the program is incompatible--(but not why--and doesn't supply a bit more information with you)--if that isn't "declaring that the program is incompatible" I don't what is? What are *you* talking about?...
    We’re referring MS testing programs, not individuals testing, so I have no idea what you’re referring to. I think MS would know by now what code in an OS it would take for backwards compatibility for third party programs to run. I would also think that MS wouldn’t spend the time or money testing programs in the first few builds, unless either the telemetry data and/or users are reporting such, then they would look into the claims. I’m sure that process of working hand in hand with developers and OEMs goes on until RTM. If possible I think they would try to adjust their code so a program would run. If not possible then the OS stands as is. Then the developer would need to adjust. Even then, it’s probably just tweaks to the program installer.

    Now MS needs to test third-party programs? Nay. It’s the other way around.
    You are really having a difficult time with this, aren't you? Look, HG, when Win10TP pops up a message telling you that you cannot install a certain program because of compatibility issues, what conclusion can be reached except that they've tested it and found it incompatible? That's what this entire thread revolves around.
    Not having a difficult time with it at all whatsoever, Walt. Quite the contrary. I think it’s you having a rather difficult time understanding the Classic Shell problem. Ivo explained his understanding of it, of which I see you reject. If not that, then MS is blocking Classic Shell for they want the data of users running their Start Menu supplied, not another. Either way it simply doesn't run. I think you should read the agreement again. They can do pretty much what they want, for it’s not a final release.

    Might as well address this while I’m at it > Even if it is a final release, where is it written in stone that MS needs to write an OS for third party programs to run on? They actually do it as a courtesy. It could be pure MS and that is all. Isn’t that what Apple does? MS didn’t approach Apple to change hardware or rewrite code because MS Office doesn’t run on its Mac hardware architecture or OS X. Quite the contrary. It was MS that had to write an Office specifically to run on Macs with OS X. Talk about anti competition. Where were the Feds then? And I don’t want to hear that Apple only has a small piece of the pie. It’s still anti competition according to the Feds way of thinking concerning a product no matter how popular it is.
    Last edited by HippsieGypsie; 27 Nov 2014 at 09:01.
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