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  1.    04 Sep 2015 #1
    Join Date : Jun 2014
    USA
    Posts : 1,433
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    How Microsoft's data case could unravel the US tech industry


    In the wake of all the "Microsoft want's to spy on us" talk I thought I'd post this interesting Microsoft court case...

    Saying "no" to the government is never a good idea. But Microsoft had little option.

    In a little under a week, Microsoft will again head to a Manhattan court in an effort to try to quash a search warrant, sought by the US Justice Department, in an international drugs-related case.

    The warrant itself isn't out of the ordinary, but it does contain a crucial facet: It is demanding data on an email account stored by Microsoft in a data center in Ireland.

    Microsoft argued the search warrant goes way beyond the means of a traditional search warrant because it forces the company to hand over data it stores in another country, which in itself is subject to different laws and regulations.

    This one case will determine - effectively - how far the US can use its own legal system to compel companies doing business within its borders to hand over data it stores overseas.

    As one report put it, the case will determine whether data has a "nationality."

    Two US judges - a magistrate and a district judge - have already agreed with the government. After dancing with the government's lawyers on technical issues, Microsoft vowed to carry on fighting at the appeals level. Microsoft swallowed a contempt of court charge in order to continue, which gives judges wide discretion to seek fines or even the prosecution of individuals.

    "Big deal," you might think. "Why should I care?" Because the case is the first of its kind, it sets up the possibility that - should the government win - that it can do this on-demand in the future, without using the courts.
    Source: How Microsoft's data case could unravel the US tech industry
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  2.    04 Sep 2015 #2
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 92
    64-bit 10240 10 Pro

    MS is headquartered in The USA, they will lose this case.
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  3.    04 Sep 2015 #3
    Join Date : May 2015
    Posts : 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    MS is headquartered in The USA, they will lose this case.
    Maybe, maybe not. Ireland, and the U.K. have laws on the books favoring data privacy. Now if Ireland has agreed to give the U.S. government the data and Microsoft is in the middle saying no, then you are correct, Microsoft will ultimately lose their argument. However, if they can point to Ireland's privacy laws and claim it will put the corporation in violation of those laws, they may win at the Supreme level.

    This is the problem of globalization of data. You can't simply enforce your will on the people of another country. We all know countries like North Korea and China have tried and it does not work.
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  4.    04 Sep 2015 #4
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 39
    Windows 10

    Yeah and in the case of Ireland or the UK, wait till the EU gets involved.
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  5.    04 Sep 2015 #5
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 92
    64-bit 10240 10 Pro

    It does not matter where the Data is, MS is a US Company and they are being Taken on by The US Department of Justice. This is not against an individual but a Global Company.
    Two US judges -- a magistrate and a district judge -- have already agreed with the government. After dancing with the government's lawyers on technical issues, Microsoft vowed to carry on fighting at the appeals level. Microsoft swallowed a contempt of court charge in order to continue, which gives judges wide discretion to seek fines or even the prosecution of individuals.
    MS will lose.
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  6.    04 Sep 2015 #6
    Join Date : May 2015
    Posts : 139
    Tried 10 Returned to 8.1

    Great information.

    I think MS will lose especially if the data originated or was delivered to a US location.

    But MS doesn't copy and preserve email data! Just ask many on this forum
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  7.    04 Sep 2015 #7
    Join Date : May 2015
    Posts : 112

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    It does not matter where the Data is, MS is a US Company and they are being Taken on by The US Department of Justice. This is not against an individual but a Global Company.


    MS will lose.
    Actually that isn't the case. I currently work for a U.S. based global company that has data held in these countries. We had to jump through several hoops just to get our data copied to the U.S. to perform normal business. These countries are very funny about this stuff.

    Microsoft is a global company, and has been for some time. They have campuses in Europe, Asia, Asia minor etc. When I worked for them in the early to mid-90's I traveled to some of our global campuses to train our folks on networking. Those campuses are not bound by U.S. law, but whatever country they are in. These countries have agreements concerning how workers are treated etc. but all data etc. is still subject to local laws.

    Gator is right though, if the data is from a U.S. citizen, or a person originating in the U.S. then normally that data is considered the property of the U.S. Just like data that originates in Ireland is considered owned by that country. At least that is how many of the international privacy laws are written.
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  8.    04 Sep 2015 #8
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 92
    64-bit 10240 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBill View Post
    Actually that isn't the case. I currently work for a U.S. based global company that has data held in these countries. We had to jump through several hoops just to get our data copied to the U.S. to perform normal business. These countries are very funny about this stuff.

    Microsoft is a global company, and has been for some time. They have campuses in Europe, Asia, Asia minor etc. When I worked for them in the early to mid-90's I traveled to some of our global campuses to train our folks on networking. Those campuses are not bound by U.S. law, but whatever country they are in. These countries have agreements concerning how workers are treated etc. but all data etc. is still subject to local laws.

    Gator is right though, if the data is from a U.S. citizen, or a person originating in the U.S. then normally that data is considered the property of the U.S. Just like data that originates in Ireland is considered owned by that country. At least that is how many of the international privacy laws are written.
    I used to work for The Dept of Justice and more than one US Judge and Magistrate has said that MS will lose which is one reason I do not use "The Cloud" for anything that I would deem important to me. Images and such is OK but there is no way in He double hockey sticks that I would ever back up my PC to a cloud based company. External Drives are cheap.
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  9.    04 Sep 2015 #9
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,533
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Maybe the US Government should have offered to pay for the data, instead of demanding it.

    If the US Government wins (i.e. it owns everyone's data, everywhere) no foreign companies will use any services from US-based companies ever again.

    The result will have to be restricted to US citizen's data or the US Tech Industry will get hammered.
    Apparently (according to several articles I've read) the NSA has already cost the US billions of dollars in lost business.
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  10.    05 Sep 2015 #10
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 38
    Win10

    And how did they found out the data is in Ireland ?Sniffing dogs ?
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