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  1.    10 Oct 2014 #31
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    Why has there never been an IDE shell for Command.com, Cmd.exe, Powershell.exe?
    There is an IDE for Powershell, and has been since at least version 2. It's called Windows Powershell ISE. It comes with Windows, but you have to look for it, or turn on the viewing of administrative tools.

    You know what's funny? 90% of the "feature requests" Microsoft gets are for features they already have.
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  2.    10 Oct 2014 #32
    Join Date : Dec 2013
    Portsmouth Hampshire
    Posts : 1,800
    Windows 10 x86 14383 Insider Pro and Core 10240

    Thanks, Mystere, I had never heard of the ISE until now. I thought Powershell was like an extension of the old WSH -the Windows Scripting Host, which I remember playing with in Windows 9x to make little dialog boxes to front executables with no Windows output.

    Powershell Integrated Scripting Environment - When I searched for it, the techies praising it use TLAs (Three Letter Abbreviations) like CLI (Command Line Interface), so I know I am in SNT (Super Nerd Territory).

    You know what's funny? 90% of the "feature requests" Microsoft gets are for features they already have.
    I am not sure that it is funny - it should be a wake-up-call to the development teams at Microsoft that they are hiding their lights under bushels - if features are there, but nested deep within Non-InTuitive QuaSi-Paths (NIT QSPs) such as:

    Control Panel\All Control Panel Items\Administrative Tools\Windows Powershell ISE

    Then it takes an age to open (is it being unpacked from a catalog?)

    - It is no wonder that users are not aware of the feature!!! - Why is it presented as I would expect an "easter egg" to be, rather than the New Improved Version (NIV) of Powershell itself??

    But... seeing that it is there, and has been there since Powershell 2.0 (exactly 5 years ago), in a much less polished form, I have discovered today... it seems to be a fabulous tool - and my original complaint remains - if there is an integrated environment (for PS), why do they not wrap the increasingly complex cmd.exe within a similar environment - if the coding has been done for a wrapper for PS, why on earth not for cmd?

    Of course, the die-hards do not have to use the GUI version - they can continue to take cold showers and use hard lavatory paper if they wish - but it would have made life much easier for the rest of us if the GUI interface had been less well hidden.

    (apologies for the TLA torrent - once I got started I could not stop!)
    Last edited by Fafhrd; 10 Oct 2014 at 14:01. Reason: Wasn't ready to post yet - will add more later
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  3.    10 Oct 2014 #33
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    Thanks, Mystere, I had never heard of the ISE until now. I thought Powershell was like an extension of the old WSH -the Windows Scripting Host, which I remember playing with in Windows 9x to make little dialog boxes to front executables with no Windows output.
    No, PowerShell is completely new, and extremely powerful. It is probably the second most powerful hidden feature in Windows (Client Hyper-V is probably the First).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    I am not sure that it is funny - it should be a wake-up-call to the development teams at Microsoft that they are hiding their lights under bushels
    But, that's just it... Every time Microsoft changes things, they get so much push back it's crazy. Microsoft created this little thing called the Ribbon specifically to address this type of issue (discovering features already in Office, but people didn't know where there) and got so much flack about it.. even now almost 10 years later.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    But... seeing that it is there, and has been there since Powershell 2.0 (exactly 5 years ago), in a much less polished form, I have discovered today... it seems to be a fabulous tool - and my original complaint remains - if there is an integrated environment (for PS), why do they not wrap the increasingly complex cmd.exe within a similar environment - if the coding has been done for a wrapper for PS, why on earth not for cmd?
    Increasingly complex? I'm not sure they've changed the cmd processor at all since it was first introduced. Don't confuse the console host (conhost) with the cmd interpreter. They are two different things. Cmd is not particularly complex, although I admit it would be nice to have better help.
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  4.    10 Oct 2014 #34
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Nothern Ohio
    Posts : 493
    Windows 7/64 Professional

    I think things like cmd prompt, Power Shell are in the background because most users will never and should not use it.

    Both are great things but in the hands of most users both can get them in deep do do very quickly.

    Those that know how to use them or want to learn how to use them will find them.
    I one of those that want to learn more about both.
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  5.    10 Oct 2014 #35
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,535
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    There is an IDE for Powershell, and has been since at least version 2. It's called Windows Powershell ISE. It comes with Windows, but you have to look for it, or turn on the viewing of administrative tools.
    I have W7 Ultimate and Powershell ISE is in the Start Menu.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    You know what's funny? 90% of the "feature requests" Microsoft gets are for features they already have.
    This is MS' standard problem; they can't explain how their stuff works.
    Apparently that's why the "Ribbon" tacked onto to Office (and various other programs).

    It isn't helped by MS' predilection for moving stuff to new locations, or changing the program names, without warning (W8 is a perfect example).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    But, that's just it... Every time Microsoft changes things, they get so much push back it's crazy. Microsoft created this little thing called the Ribbon specifically to address this type of issue (discovering features already in Office, but people didn't know where there) and got so much flack about it.. even now almost 10 years later.
    It doesn't really do that though.
    In Office 2007, there are a bunch of "Context Ribbons" that you can not activate, unless you click in the correct location in a document.

    The first time I saw the "Ribbon" was during a training course I was on.

    No one could figure out how to print a document.
    No one realised the "lollipop blob" was a button (there was no tooltip on those Vista PCs).
    It was so "traumatic", no one remembered that you could use "Ctrl + P" to bring up the Print Options.

    The only program that I don't mind the "Ribbon" in, is Excel.
    Last edited by lehnerus2000; 10 Oct 2014 at 20:27.
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  6.    10 Oct 2014 #36
    Join Date : Dec 2013
    Portsmouth Hampshire
    Posts : 1,800
    Windows 10 x86 14383 Insider Pro and Core 10240

    Increasingly complex? I'm not sure they've changed the cmd processor at all since it was first introduced. Don't confuse the console host (conhost) with the cmd interpreter. They are two different things. Cmd is not particularly complex, although I admit it would be nice to have better help.
    You are quite right, and I did not explain myself well. Rather than cmd itself, the range of commandline tools are getting increasingly complex - I gave a short list earlier - Dism.exe & BCDedit are two examples that have a bewildering number of options and are evolving with the rapid version turnover of Windows.

    Yet these commands are used occasionally by most users, so there would not be the chance to build up the familiarity with the nuances of the command, as for instance, we used attrib or dir with various switches daily when using MSDOS. That's why a context sensitive help would be a boon.

    As far as the ribbon was concerned, for me, it was a waste of space, and bad design, and still sometimes has me confused and using seemingly more clicks to get stuff done, and is less intuitive for keyboard menu shortcuts.

    At a time when monitor screens are getting wider and shorter, to mimic their TV counterparts, why lose additional PC window height to accommodate functionality? You need all the vertical screen real estate you can get.

    I have gone back to 4:3 monitors instead of 16:9 aspect ratios, simply because I don't have to scroll down a web page so often on a 15" 4:3 as I would on a 19" 16:9.
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  7.    10 Oct 2014 #37
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Manchester CT
    Posts : 358
    Windows 10 Fast Ring

    "At a time when monitor screens are getting wider and shorter, to mimic their TV counterparts, why lose additional PC window height to accommodate functionality? You need all the vertical screen real estate you can get."

    The first thing I would do is to move my taskbar from the bottom of the wide screen to the side

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    Last edited by John Pombrio; 10 Oct 2014 at 20:05.
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  8.    10 Oct 2014 #38
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,585
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    For those who might not know.


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  9.    10 Oct 2014 #39
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    You are quite right, and I did not explain myself well. Rather than cmd itself, the range of commandline tools are getting increasingly complex - I gave a short list earlier - Dism.exe & BCDedit are two examples that have a bewildering number of options and are evolving with the rapid version turnover of Windows.
    Those have nothing to do with CMD itself, and can be called from PowerShell as well. There are an infinite number of tools like this because they're just command line programs. I agree, better help would be nice.. but these are not cmd specific.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    At a time when monitor screens are getting wider and shorter, to mimic their TV counterparts, why lose additional PC window height to accommodate functionality? You need all the vertical screen real estate you can get.
    There's this nifty thing on the ribbon that collapses the ribbon to the exact same size as the menu in your example. Just click this:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    I have gone back to 4:3 monitors instead of 16:9 aspect ratios, simply because I don't have to scroll down a web page so often on a 15" 4:3 as I would on a 19" 16:9.
    Wow. A widescreen monitor doesn't have less screen real estate, it has more. my 23" monitor is 2048x1152. My old 4:3 monitor was 1280x1024. Anyway you slice that, it's more screen real-estate. Even a 1080p monitor is 1920x1080. How in the world is that worse than 1280x1024? I'm not sure what 19" 16:9 monitor has fewer vertical pixels than a 15: 4:3, that seems pretty bizarre. I think you're imagining the benefit.
    Last edited by Mystere; 10 Oct 2014 at 22:33.
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