Questions about wanting to run Win7 WMC in VM under Win10

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  1. Posts : 54
    Windows 10
       #1

    Questions about wanting to run Win7 WMC in VM under Win10


    I currently have two Win7 desktop machines, both of which are Windows Media Center (WMC) enabled. They both have Ceton InfiniTV TV-tuner cards (which are cablecard-enabled for receiving copy-protected content from my cable company) and Hauppauge OTA/ATSC TV-tuner cards (for copy-freely broadcast network channels OTA/ATSC with roof antenna). Each machine is supported by four extenders (Linksys DMA2100) around my house and ethernet cable-connected to the HTPC, each extender having an associated HDTV connected via HDMI cable. There is also an external monitor connected to the HTPC via DVI cable, which satisfes HTPC and DRM requirements. So cable-provided premium and copy-protected content can be viewed live, recorded and played back directly on the monitor attached to the HTPC, and also distributed to each extender and for presentation on the attached HDTV.

    Everything has been working perfectly for me in Win7 since 2010. One HTPC has a 2-tuner Hauppauge, and a 4-tuner Ceton, and the second HTPC has a 4-tuner Hauppauge, and a 6-tuner Ceton. Driver software for both TV tuner cards is provided from the manufacturer and has been operating stably forever.

    I can continue to run these machines as long as they live, even when MS puts Win7 out to pasture in January 2020. But I am considering the idea of migrating this Win7 setup (including the two TV tuner cards from one of the HTPC's) over to a new Win10 desktop machine I have still in its carton. I am considering replacing one of my two Win7 HTPC machines with this Win10 machine, and running WMC under Win7 in a VM.

    I have done some preliminary research and have read some reports about achieving varying degrees of success for such a project. Again, this isn't urgent and there's no rush. And I could just continue to run my secondary Win7 HTPC (which is not actually recording anything new, but is still in use "viewing down" my remaining library backlog of old copy-protected recordings which can only be viewed on this very Win7 HTPC). But I thought it would be interesting to see if I could actually get both TV tuner cards and their Win7 drivers properly operating under WMC in a Win7 VM.

    I'm not interested in running a "hack" of WMC for Win10. I want to run legitimate Win7 WMC, in a VM on Win10, running 100% reliably and identically as how it operates right now on a genuine Win7 machine.

    Anybody here have any experience trying this?

    Note that I am a very experienced WMC user, and utilize 3rd-party EPG123 (and an annual subscription to Schedules Direct (SD) for underlying Guide data) as a replacement for MS's terrible Rovi EPG technology (which replaced ZAP2it several years ago as the WMC electronic Guide mechanism when the 10-year contract expired).

    So I'm not concerned about MS's abandoning its Electronic Guide Data nightly updates in January 2020, which is of course crucial and vital for WMC to continue to operate. EPG123 and SD is light-years better than Rovi and the basic WMC Guide interface. I'm only concerned that the two TV tuner cards and their Win7 drivers may present challenges to get running in a Win7 VM.

    I've also seen reports of issues with DRM, and getting PlayReady installed and running, which allows copy-protected content to be handled by WMC on machines that must meet certain hardware requirements, as confirmed through running Digital Cable Advisor (DCA). But there is a standard workaround to manually "force" the Registry entries equivalent to having "passed" the DCA test, allowing PlayReady to then be installed and usable. Use of this "workaround" is already commonly used as the DCA tests fail more and more frequently on new Win7 installs as support for WMC within MS has been decommitted, and there's no such thing anymore as a "support ticket".

    And then there is concern about being able to view copy-protected content on the locally attached monitor (still connected with DVI cable), in terms of satisfying HDCP requirements through the VM interface. I don't think there will be a problem viewing copy-protected content through the extenders and their attached HDTV's, as that is just coming through the standard RDP session connections that extenders operate through to the HTPC. That should be unimpacted when operating through VM, but I guess I'll find out.

    Bottom line: I'd like to succeed here, if possible. But if not, I can accept it and not be impacted. But if I could actually continue to run WMC in a Win7 VM, but be operating on Win10 and a hardware setup newer than Skylake, I think that would be great.

    Thoughts?
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  2. Posts : 822
    Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
       #2

    I ran Windows 7 Ultimate with WMC enabled in VMware Workstation pro version around 10.x if I remember correctly. This was a couple years ago and I can't remember the version number of Win 10 pro which I used as the host.

    I gave it two cores and one processor and 4 gig ram, also had one gig for the graffics.

    I had a USB TV tuner that worked great on a bare metal Win 7 machine.

    I stopped using it because every once in a while the TV video was slow/choppy/lagging, not all the time but enough to make it aggravating.

    I probably could have fixed it or made it a bit better by throwing more ram or cores or more video ram but I was in a rush to watch TV so I gave up and installed WMC on Win 10 pro, The only aggravating thing about win 10 is that every major update breaks it and I have to install it again.

    I still have that VM 7-zipped on a drive I may look into it again one rainy day .
      My Computer


  3. Posts : 54
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter
       #3

    Digital Life said:
    I ran Windows 7 Ultimate with WMC enabled in VMware Workstation pro version around 10.x if I remember correctly. This was a couple years ago and I can't remember the version number of Win 10 pro which I used as the host.

    I gave it two cores and one processor and 4 gig ram, also had one gig for the graffics.

    I had a USB TV tuner that worked great on a bare metal Win 7 machine.
    I'm most apprehensive about the ability for the Ceton and Hauppauge drivers to run under VM, since they need to get to the "real hardware" (not USB external devices) TV tuner cards which would be unknown hardware to Win10. It may work, but I'm kind of skeptical. Only trying it out will tell.

    I also am unsure that the local monitor can receive copy-protected output, as that requires HDCP etc. and I'm not sure all of that will work through VM. Not to mention DRM in general. Again, it would be interesting to try out.

    I suspect the Hauppauge TV tuner (which doesn't handle copy-protected content and thus doesn't involve DRM or HDCP) won't run into the same problems outputting to the local monitor, although I still wonder if its drivers will be able to manage the Hauppauge TV tuner card itself.

    Even if I couldn't watch copy-protected content on the local monitor, as long as the WMC extenders still work I could just watch that copy-protected content externally on real HDTV's which is fine by me.


    I stopped using it because every once in a while the TV video was slow/choppy/lagging, not all the time but enough to make it aggravating.
    I would want to prove it can actually work at all and do reliable recording, before moving on to ensuring good performance. I virtually never actually watch "live" TV (since I always first record anything I actually want to watch, so that I can skip through commercials), so it's just 100% reliable recording that is uppermost in my criteria.


    I probably could have fixed it or made it a bit better by throwing more ram or cores or more video ram but I was in a rush to watch TV so I gave up and installed WMC on Win 10 pro
    I don't know about how you did this. Do you have a web site providing how-to or installation method, and downloadable files, etc., so that someone else (e.g. myself) could try this out as well? Obviously you must have somehow transplanted WMC from Win7 into a form usable in Win10, because it didn't come from MS.

    The only aggravating thing about win 10 is that every major update breaks it and I have to install it again.
    That would be annoying for sure, but first things first. I'm not sure EGP123 can work in "native Win10", whereas it almost certainly would work under Win7 VM. But I have a feeling its developer would enjoy working with me to get it to work in a "native Win10" (i.e. your version) if that could be proven stable (at least between major MS version releases).


    On a related note, never having used any VM in Windows before now, would you recommend VMWare Workstation Pro as "the best" VM product for me to use for the platform? I have only run Win7 Pro forever which is perfectly suitable for WMC and everything else I run. I have no need for Win7 Enterprise.

    Or would you suggest I go with a different VM product? I'm looking for something clean, simple, and appropriately functionally powerful, but specifically to only run WMC in Win7. That's the only app I MUST run under Win7, as everything else I run is "native" in Win10.
      My Computer


  4. Posts : 822
    Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
       #4

    I can answer a few of those questions.

    I think VMware workstation lets you use a physical PCI and PCIe devices but I'm not sure never tried it in the close to 20 years of using the program, It's not cheap either over $200.

    Hyper-V on Windows is free and I think that will allow PCI and PCIe devices but I don't think you can use USB devices, I have never used it at all.

    As for installing WMC on Win ten there are lots of tutorials, I think this one worked for me.
    Windows Media Center for Windows 10 - gHacks Tech News

    You can find a lot of info at the Green button forum
    Windows 10 Media Center - TheGreenButton.tv

    Unfortunately the forum that came up with the way to install WMC is not allowed to be posted here but funnily enough it's very similar to my name here (absolutely no affiliation or connection to me).

    If it's any help I installed version 8.8.3, I tried newer version's but it did not work.

    To stop Windows update on what I call my media PC so I can keep watching my TV I use a program called wumt wrapper script which you should be able to find on TenForums search.

    I usually wait an extra month or two or three to do a major update on my media PC when I know I have most of the day free just in case the worst happens. I may in the future only do only one major update per year since I do not use that computer for browsing the web but depending on any future vulnerabilities I may change my mind.
      My Computer


  5. Posts : 1,020
    Windows 10 Pro 20H2 19042.572
       #5

    @Digital Life you can use both PCI & PCIe devices in Hyper-V along with USB type devices as you have the matching drivers. Hyper-V is free with Windows 10 PRO & Enterprise I believe. I'm a Jack of all trades but not a "Media" expert nor am I a "Hyper-V" expert. I like to dabble
      My Computers


  6. Posts : 54
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter
       #6

    I had a brainstorm today. The "passive" Win7 HTPC already has the two TV tuner cards in it, along with everything it always had when it was my primary "active" HTPC. In order for me to use my new Win10 PC (the one that's still in the carton) for my research project I would have to transfer all the TV tuner hardware into the new machine. And also I would have to shut down the "passive" Win7 HTPC because I need the 32GB of memory it has in it, as I've scavenged all the memory from my new Win10 machine for use in the current "active" HTPC. So the Win10 machine currently has no memory in it.

    But... all I really have to do is install Win10 as a second Windows in a partition on the "passive" Win7 HTPC machine! It's all set up to go (also being a Skylake machine, and with plenty of space on the NVMe SSD for Win10 to be installed), has 32GB of memory, plenty of HDD and additional SSD storage, and would allow me to "play in the sandbox" in Win10 with WMC in a VM, and not even have to touch anything about the working functioning true Win7 WMC environment (so that I could easily continue viewing-down my recording backlog when not working on this research project in Win10).

    I've got a spare Win10 Pro retail license key and retail Win10 USB install media. All I have to do is re-boot the machine (it's home-built using an ASUS Z170-Deluxe Skylake motherboard, with Intel i7-6700 CPU and 32GB of DDR4-2400 memory) and enable "virtualization" in the BIOS, and I should be instantly ready to start... with absolutely nothing to do with any hardware!

    I will probably just begin with Hyper-V, since I have never used VM in Windows before now and it's free. I will at least become familiar with VM, and discover if I have issues that can only be resolved through a non-free other VM product, or if magically this might work... or at least get fairly far along.

    This is truly "playing in the sandbox", and sounds like it will be very educational. I don't think I want to work with a WMC hack, but rather would like to get true Win7 WMC working in a Win7 VM if possible. I don't think the author of EPG123 has any desire to make his product usable with some pirated Win10 hack of WMC that isn't genuinely supported by MS. Again, if I fail with this Win10/VM idea then I'll just live with my true Win7 HTPC machines forever, and without complaint.

    Getting all excited now.
      My Computer


  7. Posts : 822
    Microsoft Windows 10 Pro 64-bit
       #7

    When and if you get it working come back and share your results I for one would be interested to find out if you get it working properly (no choppy/lag stuttering or video and audio not synced) with hyper v.
      My Computer


  8. Posts : 54
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter
       #8

    Well, "Day #1" is finally coming to an end. It was entirely spent jumping through hoops to get Win10 installed as a second bootable Windows on my "passive HTPC" (which for future ease of reference we will name simply "Z170"). Thankfully I have Macrium Reflect and Partition Wizard to allow me to recover from problems and surprises (and there were many), and just start over.

    Turns out my original Win7 install to NVMe two years ago was to an empty Samsung 960 Pro, but I foolishly decided to partition it with MBR (since it was only 512GB, and I was only going to install Win7). Turns out that's problematic for installing Win10 onto a UEFI machine, and the target drive MUST be GPT (in order to create the EFI system partition, rather than the old "system reserved" as was the case on MBR with BIOS). So although I had carved out 150GB on this MBR NVMe SSD for the new Win10, the installer refused to install to that target since the drive was MBR.

    I then created 150GB unallocated on my 1GB Samsung 850 Pro (2.5" SATA3 SSD), and this time the install worked. However unexpectedly a brand new EFI System Partition was created on this SSD, with only Win10 in it. I wanted both Win7 and Win10 to be in the menu, and I thought the Win10 installer would have discovered the existing "system reserved" Boot Manager (on the MBR NVMe SSD), but I guess this was all very confusing to the installer.

    In the end I used EasyBCD to manually add the Win7 system to the newly created Win10 Boot Manager menu (on SATA3 SSD), which was the Metro-style menu. Unexpectedly it also seemed to update the old Win7 Boot (on NVMe SSD), which is presented in normal text mode. So when I get into the BIOS and point to the SATA3 SSD, it is the new Metro-style menu through which I can get to both Win7 and WIn10. And if I get into the BIOS and point to the NVMe SSD, it is the old text-style menu through which I can get to both Win7 and Win10. Surprising, but apparently EasyBCD found BOTH of these Boot Manager menus and updated them both!

    One more challenge I had to overcome. When my first attempt at installing Win10 in the NVMe 150GB failed because the drive was MBR, I used Partition Wizard to change the drive from MBR to GPT. And of course that went just fine. Unfortunately I could no longer boot to Win7, which when starting up tried to create a whole new first-time brand new desktop, ultimately ending in "this version of Windows is not genuine". I think when Win7 is installed to MBR the drive cannot be converted to GPT without doing a whole brand new from-scratch install. Apparently it's not possible to just continue to use a previously MBR-installed Win7 on a converted-to-GPT drive as I tried.

    So in the end I gave up my objective of placing Win10 on the much faster NVMe SSD, and was forced to relocate it to the reasonably fast SATA3 SSD.

    And, yet one more challenge (which thankfully I'd already faced and conquered when installing Win10 on my Lenovo W530 laptop which I'd bought in 2013 with Win7 pre-installed). I was using a USB install media that had been built through Microsoft tools and already contained 1803. Unfortunately, this installer fails to install successfully, bombing out early with a "Windows cannot install required files. Make sure all files required for installation are available". The exact same thing happened last year with my W530 laptop, and occurred again tonight with my Z170 desktop. I don't know what the problem is, but apparently the construction of this install media is incorrect, even though I had no error when building it.

    Solution to this one was that I also had an older USB install media from two years ago, based on 1511. And using this one worked for my W530, and worked again tonight with my Z170. So I have to spend some longer amount of time updating to 1809 (I'm not going to 1903 yet) than if I'd started with 1803, but at least I've got a Win10 installed.

    It's going to take me a few days to "build-out" this new Win10, get it all customized and updated, and all my 3rd-party software products installed, before moving on to Phase 2 regarding installing Hyper-V and getting my feet wet. I will come back and post a progress report once I get close to Phase 3, which will begin the WMC experiment.
      My Computer


  9. Posts : 11,247
    Windows / Linux : Arch Linux
       #9

    Hi folks

    @DSperber

    No problem running hardware drivers on VM's especially from USB attached type hardware-- at least if you use VMware

    Here's an XP VM running with a physical Minidisc driver (remember minidiscs !!) works perfectly even today so there shouldn't be any problem installing the driver on your VM.

    Questions about wanting to run Win7 WMC in VM under Win10-snapshot38.png

    If it's an internal card rather than a USB type device there might be problems though as the HOST might not recognize the card -- otherwise few problems with hardware on VM's

    Note though for Video you'll need a bit of decent CPU power so make sure your HOST is powerful enough.

    I'd suggest though for using USB devices etc you don't start with HYPER-V VMWare player is free as is VBOX and both these are easier IMO to manage this type of stuff -- others might disagree but learning HYPER-V takes a bit of time and having to use things like RDP to access / control the VM isn't IMO the best way to learn how to use the system.

    The advantage though with HYPER-V is that it should be possible to use "pass thru" so the real hardware can be accessed. Probably worth experimenting with all the VM options -- remember though to use VMWare or VBOX you have to disable HYPER-V. If you want to run HYPER-V you don't have to uninstall VMWARE / VBOX but they won't work with HYPER-V and you may have to disable some services - I think there's a few tutorials in the section -- look for posts by KARI as well as he's the recognized guru on this type of stuff.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My Computer


  10. Posts : 54
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter
       #10

    Ok. I've now registered with VMWare, and downloaded the free-for-personal-use Workstation Player for Windows installer. Of course there's no vendor support for this "free" player, but I'm sure I'll be able to intuit much of the preliminary stuff of getting started.

    In passing, I mention that I was not impressed at all with the chat rep and two phone reps I spoke with from VMWare. Combined with the almost incomprehensible web site presentation, If this speaks to the "ease of use" of this product I'm not optimistic right out of the box. Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously not justified in pre-judging anything yet, aside from their web site and three personal human contacts. But so far, this hasn't gone well.

    The chat person knew nothing at all, and told me to phone their 877 number.

    The person who answered on the 877 line knew nothing, and had to go away (with me on hold briefly) for the so-called answers to each of the three questions I had, first of which was "is Workstation Player free for personal use?". He explained he was only in "customer support" (really???) and didn't know the answer to my question (really???), and transferred me to someone in "licensing". Seemed to be a striking lack of knowledge about the product itself, if you are 1st-line phone answer person in "customer support". Second question was "how do I indicate personal use, so that it is free, when I'm likely going to be prompted for a license key to activate"? Hence the transfer to "licensing".

    The person in "licensing" said he didn't see my email in "My VMWare", which of course was true because I had no knowledge that I had to register in order to obtain the "free download" of the product. I had actually just pushed the DOWNLOAD button on their first page of Workstation Player for Windows, and downloaded the file. Anyway, he wanted to walk me through to what he thought was the "real download button" in the My VMWare environment, so for that I first had to register and login... which I did while he waited.

    I then followed his links directions, and eventually got to the "download free products" section, and pushed the button for the "VMWare Workstation Player (free)", only to discover that this download was exactly the same file name and exactly the same byte size as the very file which got downloaded 20 minutes earlier from the big DOWNLOAD button on the first page I'd looked at. Oh well. He was surprised as well.

    Anyway, I'm about ready to get started. Haven't done anything with Hyper-V yet (although I did add it to Win10 from Features, so it's available for use should I want to go that route). So I will just start right off with VMWare Workstation Player (which is $149 if I want to buy it and get vendor support, which is only 30-days complimentary which I assume means for phone support, though I would hope email "ticket" support is also free beyond 30-days... if I had paid money for it).

    Very much looking forward to this whole VM learning experience. I'm familiar with operating with VM on IBM mainframes, so I'm curious to see this whole implementation of VM on PC's and how it "feels".
      My Computer


 

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