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  1.    17 Jun 2016 #10
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    I have to comment that before possible readers of this thread get a wrong idea:

    Mystere is talking in his above quoted post about a Windows 7 host machine natively booting to a guest OS on a VHD, I assume by creating a VHD file at boot and installing OS on it as told in this tutorial on our sister site: Virtual Hard Drive VHD File - Create and Start with at Boot - Windows 7 Help Forums

    This tutorial however is about Windows 10 and Hyper-V, creating first a vm in Hyper-V then adding the VHD of it to host boot menu in dual boot, to boot VHD on physical hardware. The performance difference compared to a "real" OS is so insignificant you will most probably not even notice it.
    Maybe i'm misunderstanding. Your tutorial seems to be doing exactly that. Or is the key difference that you're installing the OS in Hyper-V and then natively booting afterwards, rather than installing the OS to VHD?

    Regardless the OS is no longer a "guest". It's the native OS, running on a VHD, and is exactly the same scenario regardless of how it got installed.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  2.    17 Jun 2016 #11
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    A Finnish expat in Germany
    Posts : 12,663
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Maybe i'm misunderstanding. Your tutorial seems to be doing exactly that. Or is the key difference that you're installing the OS in Hyper-V and then natively booting afterwards, rather than installing the OS to VHD?
    It seems that you didn't bother to read the tut.

    In my opinion the tutorial, starting from it's name very clearly tells we are not talking about creating a VHD at boot and then installing OS on it:
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    I am not a teacher nor a professional writer, with my limited capacity and especially as I am using a foreign language (English) I am not able to make the purpose of the tutorial any clearer. If you have ideas how to explain the purpose of this tut more clearly, please let me know.



    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Regardless the OS is no longer a "guest". It's the native OS, running on a VHD, and is exactly the same scenario regardless of how it got installed.
    Not only do I think you did not even read the tutorial but I also think you have not tested the method told in the tutorial in Windows 10. There's a huge difference compared to native boot in Windows 7.

    I hope that possible readers of this will not take your comments too seriously.

    A very sincere Kari
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  3.    18 Jun 2016 #12
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 17,028
    Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro N, Win10 Home, Win10 Pro Insider Fast Ring, Windows 8.1 Pro, Ubuntu

    @Kari, I decided to ask here instead of on Skype, incase someone else had the same question in the future(or at least thought about it).

    Do you know about the wubi installer for Ubuntu?WubiGuide - Ubuntu Wiki
    I believe it has been depreciated now(in any case it doesn't work on Windows 8 and higher), but there used to be two ways to install Ubuntu.
    One- install it as either a dual boot or alone.
    Two- use wubi and install it inside of Windows, and it would add a boot option INSIDE of Windows bootloader/boot menu, instead of using GRUB.

    Now the question, is this how wubi worked/"installed" Ubuntu?
    Or at least the same principal?

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by Cliff S; 18 Jun 2016 at 00:36. Reason: Added screenshots
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  4.    18 Jun 2016 #13
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 17,028
    Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro N, Win10 Home, Win10 Pro Insider Fast Ring, Windows 8.1 Pro, Ubuntu

    Note to above,
    Interestingly you could uninstall Ubuntu in Programs and Features.
    If it created a virtual disk, then the uninstaller probably just deleted the virtual disks, and ran bcdedit.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  5.    18 Jun 2016 #14
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 3,655
    10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Or is the key difference that you're installing the OS in Hyper-V and then natively booting afterwards, rather than installing the OS to VHD?
    I've done both (installing direct to VHD with DISM as in the link at the top of the tutorial and creating VHD through Hyper-V or VirtualBox). It makes no difference as you end up with same thing unless there is some difference in the internal structure of the VHD (it is only a container). In any case I've noticed no perceptible drop in performance booting VHD (I have 10 installed) compared to normal boot whatever method is used to create it.

    As far as I know disk I/O is the only hardware that is abstracted when booting from VHD. What you could try therefore is to update the files in your system partition to 10 (using PE or something) - this is what contains the BCD store and the drivers to allow identification/utilisation of the VHD/VHDX format. That is the only thing that could make a difference between 7 and 10 as it is only stuff in this partition that is required except from the VHD file itself.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    18 Jun 2016 #15
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    A Finnish expat in Germany
    Posts : 12,663
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff S View Post
    Do you know about the wubi installer for Ubuntu?WubiGuide - Ubuntu Wiki
    Honestly, I have not a faintest clue. Never used wubi, only installed Ubuntu once to get screenshots for a virtualization tutorial, removing it as soon as it was installed on a vm.


    Quote Originally Posted by lx07 View Post
    I've done both (installing direct to VHD with DISM as in the link at the top of the tutorial and creating VHD through Hyper-V or VirtualBox). It makes no difference as you end up with same thing unless there is some difference in the internal structure of the VHD (it is only a container). In any case I've noticed no perceptible drop in performance booting VHD (I have 10 installed) compared to normal boot whatever method is used to create it.

    As far as I know disk I/O is the only hardware that is abstracted when booting from VHD. What you could try therefore is to update the files in your system partition to 10 (using PE or something) - this is what contains the BCD store and the drivers to allow identification/utilisation of the VHD/VHDX format. That is the only thing that could make a difference between 7 and 10 as it is only stuff in this partition that is required except from the VHD file itself.
    I have similar experiences than Mystere. Windows 7 system, VHD created at boot and another OS installed on it having significant worse disk I/O speeds.

    As I moved from Windows 7 to 8 as soon as first preview version of 8 was released thereafter only running 7 on virtual machines, and again migrating from 8.1 to 10 as soon as first 10 TP was released, I admit now reading your explanation that my experience might be because due this "rapid" migration to new Windows versions not yet published to general public. Never updated Windows 7 system partition and BCD store.

    Anyway, your explanation makes sense.

    Kari
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    25 Jul 2016 #16
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    A Finnish expat in Germany
    Posts : 12,663
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter

      My ComputerSystem Spec
  8.    13 Jan 2017 #17
    Join Date : Jan 2017
    Posts : 2
    Win10x64

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    It seems that you didn't bother to read the tut.

    In my opinion the tutorial, starting from it's name very clearly tells we are not talking about creating a VHD at boot and then installing OS on it:
    Name:  2016_06_18_00_48_241.png
Views: 697
Size:  65.2 KB

    I am not a teacher nor a professional writer, with my limited capacity and especially as I am using a foreign language (English) I am not able to make the purpose of the tutorial any clearer. If you have ideas how to explain the purpose of this tut more clearly, please let me know.





    Not only do I think you did not even read the tutorial but I also think you have not tested the method told in the tutorial in Windows 10. There's a huge difference compared to native boot in Windows 7.

    I hope that possible readers of this will not take your comments too seriously.

    A very sincere Kari
    When booting natively to a virtual machine in this way is it possible to run the "original host" virtualized under hyper-v simultaneously?
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  9.    13 Jan 2017 #18
    Join Date : Oct 2016
    Posts : 130
    Microsoft Windows 10 x64

    thanks Kari for all these new ideas (at least for me)
    i have already installed a vhdx native boot the hard-way as explained by Microsoft

    Macrium seems to have advantage over Acronis (I use it for OS backup) for this job
    I will have a look
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  10.    14 Jan 2017 #19
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    A Finnish expat in Germany
    Posts : 12,663
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by computerized View Post
    When booting natively to a virtual machine in this way is it possible to run the "original host" virtualized under hyper-v simultaneously?
    The answer is a very clear Yes and No

    Theoretically? Yes. Doable? Again, yes if conditions are met. Practical? No, never.

    The host, physical machine must be first migrated to a virtual hard disk (see Wikipedia: Physical to Virtual P2V). I've written a tutorial about P2V using Disk2VHD.

    The guest OS on VHD you'd use in native boot would then need to be big enough to host this P2V file. Now boot natively to your VHD, and use the P2V file, your virtualised host to set up a VM using that P2V file as existing VHD. Another option is to leave P2V VHD stored on host, any drive that allows it to expand to its full capacity; Windows on native boot VHD has access to host drives so a VM could be set up with P2V VHD as existing VHD stored on another computer, in this case on host.

    Of course this is not practical. P2V VHD made from your host is not the same machine than your physical host. Changes on host, data or software added, modified or removed are not shown on P2V VHD, and vice versa.


    Quote Originally Posted by D4ni3l View Post
    Macrium seems to have advantage over Acronis (I use it for OS backup) for this job
    Macrium is about the best tool to fix Windows boot issues, a feature often forgotten.

    Kari
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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