Want to control battery charging

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  1. Posts : 1,203
    11 Home
       #21

    hsehestedt said:
    It is absolutely 100% for sure a known fact that leaving Lithium Ion batteries in a fully charged state (4.2V) will lower their overall usable lifespan.
    Yuppers. As is charging them fully (usually, "fully" means 4.2V, but this depends on the actual specs) vs charging them to only ~3.92V instead of 4.2V or, alternatively, vs something more conveniently between 3.92V and 4.2V in order to achieve a more feasible tradeoff between accelerated battery aging and the sacrifice in charge level. As is reducing the Depth of Discharge (DoD) from 2.5V (the minimum voltage that is still regarded as "safe", albeit this depends on the actual specs also) or 2.8V (or whatever is close to minimum cut-off) to a much more conservative level, like, for example, 3.2V or therabout. As is storing the cells at not more than just a few degrees above room temp vs at more than 30 degrees Celsius (86 degrees Fahrenheit). There's several many more different stress factors that are well known to accelerate aging in lithium ion rechargeable cells. I am a vaper, coil builder, and fond collector of mechanical mods (that's my main hobby) so yeah. I am pretty confident that I did all of my homework on the subject of lithium ion rechargeable cells, fairly meticulously in fact.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Try3 said:
    I asked you about the article that you posted a link to. I notice that you have failed to answer that question.

    Denis
    I own a SkyRC MC3000 battery charger and used it to run some of my own tests, the results were all very predictable. But everyone is still free to choose to believe Dell nonsense I guess...
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  2. Posts : 16,949
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 22H2 Build 19045.4170
       #22

    You are still failing to answer the question. You cited that article as providing evidence yet you have refused to state what evidence it contains or where in it that evidence is to be found.

    Denis
      My Computer


  3. Posts : 1,203
    11 Home
       #23

    Try3 said:
    You are still failing to answer the question. You cited that article as providing evidence yet you have refused to state what evidence it contains or where in it that evidence is to be found.

    Denis
    There's tons of evidence spread all over the internet. Just google for lithium ion cycle life, you'll find out soon enough that the State of Charge, or SoC is indeed among the important parameters that affect the cycle life, both when it comes to holding the cells in storage (i.e., keeping them idle at that particular SoC while just letting them very slowly self discharge as a result from their not being actively used) and when it comes to merely charging them before actively using them (i.e. by discharging instead of storing them). This is just a long established fact, similar to the fact that there are colors in a rainbow.
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  4. Posts : 4,187
    Windows 11 Pro, 22H2
       #24

    hdmi said:
    There's tons of evidence spread all over the internet. Just google for lithium ion cycle life, you'll find out soon enough that the State of Charge, or SoC is indeed among the important parameters that affect the cycle life, both when it comes to holding the cells in storage (i.e., keeping them idle at that particular SoC while just letting them very slowly self discharge as a result from their not being actively used) and when it comes to merely charging them before actively using them (i.e. by discharging instead of storing them). This is just a long established fact, similar to the fact that there are colors in a rainbow.
    As I noted above, and cited the evidence including statements from manufacturers of Li-Ion batteries, you are 100% correct.
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  5. Posts : 16,949
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 22H2 Build 19045.4170
       #25

    hdmi said:
    There's tons of evidence spread all over the internet.
    Try3 said:
    You are still failing to answer the question. You cited that article as providing evidence yet you have refused to state what evidence it contains or where in it that evidence is to be found.
    Denis
      My Computer

  6.   My Computers


  7. Posts : 4,187
    Windows 11 Pro, 22H2
       #27

    I'm pretty sure I can use that paper to cure my insomnia .
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  8. Posts : 16,949
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 22H2 Build 19045.4170
       #28

    My own battery testing


    I was disappointed that my question was not answered. I cannot see any evidence of battery cell behaviour in that linked article; I can only see assertions.
    - I would have welcomed being corrected if I had failed to spot evidence in that article.
    - I don’t regard their unsubstantiated assertions as useful. They do not cite their sources except for the non-specific statement, “The information is compiled from the manufacturer's specifications, test labs and crowdsourcing.”, shown on their homepage.



    For my part, I am conducting testing that I hope will progress my own bank of evidence of battery behaviour.
    - I have no reason to believe that my results will be of use to anybody other than owners of Dell Inspiron 17 7000 Series computers.
    - - My test computer is a Dell Inspiron 7779.
    - - My test computer’s batteries are not made up of Type 18650 Li-ion 3.7V cells but 4.4V cells, possibly Li-Polymer cells similar to those used in my smartphones & my tablet.
    - My battery cells are part of a battery and that battery’s charging & discharging behaviour is governed by a battery management system.
    - Battery cell performance has been widely remarked up on and there are many scientific & empirical studies available for scrutiny.
    - What I have never seen are reports of studies of complete battery systems - cells in batteries governed by the battery management systems in laptops.
    - I have no idea what my battery management system is doing with regard to maximum charging voltage reached and this, I understand, is a most important factor in determining battery longevity i.e. the actual [effective] number of charge-discharge cycles achieved is determined by the maximum charging voltage reached.

    I have good records of battery capacity for each of the two batteries I possess for the test computer.
    - I measure capacity by running PowerCfg Battery reports / Energy reports to seek out the ratio Last Full Charge / Design Capacity
    - Both batteries were always charged to 100% [as shown on the Windows SysTray gauge] and external power was always left on when it was available.
    - I refer to “external” power rather than “mains” or “AC” power merely because I have special-to-type 19.5V powerbanks for the test computer so I can have power available almost always.
    - - Test battery 1 - 4.5 years old, used on battery power for probably over an hour a day for its first year [its capacity dropped to 80% during that period], after that it has been on external power for almost the whole time. In the following 3.5 years, it has been in use for 6 months a year and in storage for the other 6 months and its capacity has dropped by a consistent 8% a year.
    - - Test battery 2 - 2.5 years old, it has been on external power for almost the whole time. It has been in use for 6 months a year and in storage for the other 6 months and its capacity has not dropped i.e. it remains at 100%.

    For my tests, I have changed the computer’s charging behaviour to start charging at 80% and stop at 90%.
    - Selecting those particular levels was somewhat arbitrary.
    - I have to temporarily allow the batteries to charge to 100% [as shown on the Windows SysTray gauge] in order to run PowerCfg Battery reports / Energy reports.
    - I do not expect to be able to conclude anything for a couple of years i.e. after both batteries have had two periods in use and two periods in storage.

    It was somewhat disconcerting to find, so soon after starting this test, that
    - Dell Tech support now say [in the video referenced earlier on in this thread] that allowing the battery to reach 100% charge every time made no difference to battery longevity.
    - The OP’s newer version of Dell Power manager lite does not have my version’s facilities for limiting the charging level. I think this might also indicate that Dell no longer think it worthwhile.
    Those things make me think that my results might well be that limiting the charging level has no effect. But I’ll only build up my own evidence by trying so I will continue my test.


    Denis
      My Computer


  9. Posts : 1,223
    W10-Pro 22H2
       #29

    Denis: I was intrigued enough to see what I could find about this - and, not surprisingly, nearly all the research papers with actual evidence, as opposed to mere statements about the effect, were behind paywalls. But I did find this paper (sorry, the link is via google and too long to be worth making visible), a pdf which has some real experimental data inside. I haven't read it completely, but it concludes that there is benefit in avoiding storage at high SOC. I should point out that it tested EV batteries, not PC ones, so may be entirely irrelevant!
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  10. Posts : 16,949
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 22H2 Build 19045.4170
       #30

    Martin,

    That's Extending Battery Lifetime by Avoiding High SOC - MDPI Applied Sciences

    It's one of the EV studies that also identifies depth of discharge as a key factor in battery longevity as have several [but not all] laptop-related studies. I have read it but not particularly studied it because it doesn't progress the subject I'm interested in.

    Thanks,
    Denis
      My Computer


 

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