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  1.    14 Oct 2015 #21
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 401
    Windows 10 Pro

    De-fragmentation of a SSD is useless by design. Fragmentation is only an issue of HDDs where the reading/writing head has to move all over the disks in order to "collect" the different parts that together build your data (e.g. the audio files of an album). De-fragmentation does the following: It "collects" the different parts of your data and rearranges them so they are stored subsequently on the disks meaning the head does not have to move that much in order to read out the data which leads to faster reading speeds.

    For an SSD on the other hand fragmentation is not an issue. It reads fragmented data just as fast as not fragmented data. So besides reducing the SSD's lifetime de-fragmentation would also be completely useless.

    SSD's have another issue though. They can write onto the entire storage but they can only delete entire blocks (can't remember the exact details right now but you can google it, just look up trim on Wikipedia). That's what trim is for. So what happens is with time there are a lot of incomplete blocks on your SSD, partially filled with valid data, partially filled with data marked for deletion. But that data cannot be physically deleted because the blocks still contain valid data. Now trim comes into play and rearranges the data so all the valid data is stored in a way it fills up as much entire blocks as possible, leading to the "marked for deletion" data also filling up entire blocks. And now those entire blocks can finally be physically deleted making room for new data.

    In short words: De-fragmentation of SSDs does nothing useful but (in theory) destroys your drive.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  2.    14 Oct 2015 #22
    Join Date : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 10,622
    W10 Insider + Linux

    On HDDs, some of what may appear to be fragmentation is by design. Some programs (MS Office, data bases etc.) leave empty blocks at the end of data files so those files could be expanded linearly and so speed up their loading and writing to. Windows usually report less of fragmentation than other, third party defrag programs because partly of that.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  3.    14 Oct 2015 #23
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Penn's Woods
    Posts : 1,275
    Windows 10 Home

    Quote Originally Posted by altae View Post
    ...For an SSD on the other hand fragmentation is not an issue. It reads fragmented data just as fast as not fragmented data. So besides reducing the SSD's lifetime de-fragmentation would also be completely useless. ...
    But, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, it's not as simple as that: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRea...ntYourSSD.aspx
    EXCERPT -
    ...Storage Optimizer will defrag an SSD once a month if volume snapshots are enabled. This is by design and necessary due to slow volsnap copy on write performance on fragmented SSD volumes. Itís also somewhat of a misconception that fragmentation is not a problem on SSDs. If an SSD gets too fragmented you can hit maximum file fragmentation (when the metadata canít represent any more file fragments) which will result in errors when you try to write/extend a file. Furthermore, more file fragments means more metadata to process while reading/writing a file, which can lead to slower performance....
    Quote Originally Posted by altae View Post
    ...In short words: De-fragmentation of SSDs does nothing useful but (in theory) destroys your drive.
    I think we need to draw a finer distinction on this thinking, that's exactly why "defrag" and SSD in the same sentence seems so inflammatory.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  4.    14 Oct 2015 #24
    Join Date : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 10,622
    W10 Insider + Linux

    Quote Originally Posted by Word Man View Post
    But, as has been discussed earlier in the thread, it's not as simple as that: http://www.hanselman.com/blog/TheRea...ntYourSSD.aspx

    I think we need to draw a finer distinction on this thinking, that's exactly why "defrag" and SSD in the same sentence seems so inflammatory.
    I think it's more down to comparing defragmentation on mechanical HDDs and SSDs, it's not the same thing.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  5.    14 Oct 2015 #25
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Penn's Woods
    Posts : 1,275
    Windows 10 Home

    Quote Originally Posted by CountMike View Post
    I think it's more down to comparing defragmentation on mechanical HDDs and SSDs, it's not the same thing.
    Totally agreed - and also a little a bit, when it comes to what's needed for optimization side of things, newer SSDs versus older SSDs and new OS's versus older OS's.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    29 Oct 2015 #26

    Word of Caution Based On An Experience This Week...

    I've used a third party defragmenter called Piriform Defraggler without any trouble for 5 years with Windows 7 home P.C.s.

    After upgrading from Win7 to Win10 on one P.C., it worked very sluggishly, even though I had Win10's built in defragmenter turned off. But, it got the job done of moving video files to the end of the drive, which is why I liked it so much.

    Two nights ago, I ran the "Boot Time Defrag" function. The PC shut down, restarted, started defragging the (? can't think of what they're called) files and then the Win10 O.S. locked up with a black screen for hours. Tried every fix I could find here in the forum and on the internet. Finally had to totally erase and reinstall using the original 2010 Win-7 O.S. that came with this HP desktop. Five years of "stuff", all gone. But, upgrading back to Win10 was easier and there were no conflicts along the way, or since upgrading. Took an entire day though.

    So what's the lesson from this story? Stay away from any application that isn't Win10 certified by the vendor? Maybe that's not even enough, because a quick check of Defraggler - Download indicates that Defraggler IS Win10 certified. At any rate...just be careful! If a program acts "strange" on Windows10, it could be the prelude to something very unfortunate coming your way.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    29 Oct 2015 #27
    Join Date : Oct 2015
    Posts : 2,112
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    Hi,

    I take it this was on a HDD not a SSD ?
    Either way, running boot time defragmentation to defrag the MFT and pagefile is ALWAYS a risk and the defragmentation software should warn you about that.
    Oh, and if that drive is a GPT one you can bet your life on it that you're going to be in trouble doing a boot time defrag with most defrag software.

    Sorry to hear the worst happened to you but I'm sure this has nothing to do with Win 10, this can happen on any OS really.

    And no, you should not run a defragmentation program that's not SSD aware on a SSD. It's useless and other than wearing the drive out unnecessarily it won't bring you any advantage whatsoever.
    SSDs rely on TRIM, Garbage Collection and in most cases (bar the Sandforce controllers) on over provisioning to keep house and that's all taken care of by both the OS (provided it supports TRIM) and the drive's controller logic.
    SSDs that still require over provisioning come with part of the capacity set aside to do exactly that, bar some really old ones, you don't need to set aside a chunk of the drive for that, it's all take care of out of the box so to speak.

    Cheers,
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  8.    29 Oct 2015 #28
    Join Date : Oct 2015
    Posts : 2,112
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    Hi,

    Virtually all the defragmenters I ever tried report different percentage and defragment in different way. And another thing, every time you do full disk defragmentation, that disk had a workout like if you erased it and returned contents on it. It may be equivalent of moths of normal usage. Overdoing it can shorten HDD life considerably.
    That very much depends on how the defragmentation software is designed. I.e. it should prevent fragmentation to begin with and then we're talking.
    That said my favourite one no longer runs on Win 10 and I use only SSD now anyhow.
    Still, under W7 and below it worked great on both HDD and SSD just the same. I sorely miss it.

    But saying that W10 does no longer benefit from defragmentation ? Really ?

    Cheers,
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  9.    30 Oct 2015 #29
    Join Date : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 10,622
    W10 Insider + Linux

    None of that SW prevents fragmentation. I run HDD speed tests before and after defrag with few programs (not on my disks) and there was no difference, not since W7 that doesn't fragment disks even after long usage, several years with heavy traffic in my case. Most I have seen was 1 - 2% according to Windows defragmenter. Auto defragment turned off.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  10.    30 Oct 2015 #30
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 59
    Win10

    Quote Originally Posted by altae View Post
    De-fragmentation of a SSD is useless by design. .
    Not according to Microsoft who design their OS to work on ssds and hdds. They say that the file system records used by the ssd need fragmenting about once a month, and they do it as part of the OS maintenance program. The file system records have a max capacity of fragments it can record, so needs defragging to keep the number of fragments within the limits.

    Bob Frost
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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