System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"

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  1. apb
    Posts : 87
    win 7 64bit
    Thread Starter
       #31

    Try3 said:
    Peter,

    [I'm still only 10% of the way through the -qh results]

    "The disk to which I am backing up is an external usb 3.0 disk. It's configured for "quick removal" in device manager, but there are no power options for it in device manager. Also, the power options gui does not show (turn off disks after...). But, this is a WD Passport drive, and I think WD can set a timeout through its app. I think the Windows default value for this is 10 minutes, iirc. The USB hub to which it is connected does NOT have "allow computer to turn off this device to save power" checked. Same with its upstream controller."

    Regardless of anything else I suggest when I've finished with the -qh results, I do think you ought to find out what the behaviour is like if you connect the backup drive directly to your computer without the hub in the way.

    You have set Turn off hard disk after to 30 seconds. I can imagine that being disruptive during imaging - if there is a pause while Macrium thinks about things then it would have to wake disks up again before it writes the next bit of the image. Mine, just for comparison, is set to 5 minutes.
    - Perhaps the time taken to wake a disk up annoys Macrium, perhaps it doesn't. I don't know.
    - I have never experimented with this setting so I don't know what its practical effects would be.
    There's a TenForumsTutorial on how to add this item to those displayed in Power options, Advanced settings so you can change it in there.
    Add or Remove 'Turn off hard disk after' from Power Options - TenForumsTutorial


    All the best,
    Denis
    Thanks.

    Hmmm... 30 seconds. That's not good. Yes, I will add that feature to power options and fix the parameter to something reasonable like 10 minutes.

    On the USB hub, that is the hub that is internal to the machine. The disk drive is plugged directly into the machine.

    - - - Updated - - -

    apb said:
    Thanks.

    Hmmm... 30 seconds. That's not good. Yes, I will add that feature to power options and fix the parameter to something reasonable like 10 minutes.

    On the USB hub, that is the hub that is internal to the machine. The disk drive is plugged directly into the machine.
    Actually, on 2nd thought, the system disk in the machine is an nvme ssd drive. I'm not sure (a) whether it's a good idea to change that parameter for that drive and (b) whether it will even affect an external usb drive, especially since it probably has its own timeout timer in firmware.
      My Computers

  2. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #32

    Peter,

    "On the USB hub, that is the hub that is internal to the machine"
    OK. I know Windows refers to its USB hub that way but I have only ever heard people ref to a hub if it was a separate thing outside the computer. So I misunderstood that comment of yours.


    "Actually, on 2nd thought, the system disk in the machine is an nvme ssd drive. I'm not sure (a) whether it's a good idea to change that parameter for that drive and (b) whether it will even affect an external usb drive, especially since it probably has its own timeout timer in firmware."
    As I said, I've never experimented with that setting. I don't know if changing it will make any difference or not.
    Perhaps you could ask for opinions in the tutorial thread.


    I'm now on line 357 of the 1264 lines in the -qh output and my brain has melted. I'll carry on later but will not finish/post until tomorrow.

    These are the notes I've made so far [#2 is the already-posted Turn off hard disk after item]. I haven't proof-read them yet - any odd words are likely to be missing he letter t

    1 You have a difference in your Networking connectivity in Standby settings but I don't think it is significant as far as your problem goes.
    You allow your computer to remain connected to networks when in S0 Modern standby if you are on AC power but when you are on battery you let Windows decide.
    So, to help you decide which you want, have a look at
    Enable or Disable Network Connectivity in Modern Standby - TenForumsTutorials
    www.tenforums.com/tutorials/146593-enable-disable-network-connectivity-modern-standby-windows-10-a.html
    I have mine enabled because I regard S0 Modern standby as just a variant of being on and, if it's on, I want my other computers to be able to send files to it and I want it to continue with any internet-related jobs [such as downloading, updates] despite S0 kicking in.

    2 [Already posted] You have set Turn off hard disk after to 30 seconds. I can imagine that being disruptive during imaging - if there is a pause while Macrium thinks about things then it would have to wake disks up again before it writes the next bit of the image. Mine, just for comparison, is set to 5 minutes.
    - Perhaps the time taken to wake a disk up annoys macrium, perhaps it doesn't.
    - I have never experimented with this setting so I don't know what its practical effects would be.
    There's a TenForumsTutorial on how to add this item to those displayed in Power options, Advanced settings so you can change it in there.
    [link already posted]

    3 You have Wireless Adapter Settings, Power Saving Mode set to maximum performance on AC power and Medium Power Saving on battery. There's nothing wrong with that. You can access & change this setting in Power options, Advanced settings.

    4 You mentioned Away Mode Policy in one of your earlier posts. Yours is set to allow it on AC power but disallow it on DC power. Perhaps this needs discussion. I will need to dig out some old MS reference books to check exactly what this means.

    5 You have Sleep after set to Never on AC & 10 mins on battery. My S0 computer has both these set to 0. I think Windows ignores the enry for an S0 compuer anyway but you access & change this setting in Power options, Advanced settings.

    6 I think you also mentioned System unattended sleep timeout earlier on. Yours is set to 2 mins. So are both my S0 compuer and my S3 computer. I've never given any though to this setting but I imagine its precise definition is also in my old MS reference books.

    7 You have enabled Hybrid sleep. That's really only useful for desktop computers. I'd bet that Windows ignores this setting completely for S0 computers but I cannot be certain. Please check your Power options, Advanced settings to see if this item is shown within the Sleep group of settings. I hope so because explaining the alternative [another PowerCfg command] is awkward.

    8 You've set Hibernate after to 1 hour [AC] & 30 mins [battery]. I don't have any comment to make about that.

    9 You have enabled wake timers for AC but not for battery. Windows ignores the setting for S0 computers anyway.

    10 You have left Settings, Devices, USB, Stop devices if my screen is off set to On [its default]. Given that the problem you are experiencing is associated with USB connected devices, I suggest you clear that checkbox to avoid unwanted disconnections.
    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-stop-devices-if-my-screen-off.png


    All the best,
    Denis
      My Computer


  3. apb
    Posts : 87
    win 7 64bit
    Thread Starter
       #33

    Try3 said:
    Peter,

    "On the USB hub, that is the hub that is internal to the machine"
    OK. I know Windows refers to its USB hub that way but I have only ever heard people ref to a hub if it was a separate thing outside the computer. So I misunderstood that comment of yours.


    "Actually, on 2nd thought, the system disk in the machine is an nvme ssd drive. I'm not sure (a) whether it's a good idea to change that parameter for that drive and (b) whether it will even affect an external usb drive, especially since it probably has its own timeout timer in firmware."
    As I said, I've never experimented with that setting. I don't know if changing it will make any difference or not.
    Perhaps you could ask for opinions in the tutorial thread.


    I'm now on line 357 of the 1264 lines in the -qh output and my brain has melted. I'll carry on later but will not finish/post until tomorrow.

    These are the notes I've made so far [#2 is the already-posted Turn off hard disk after item]. I haven't proof-read them yet - any odd words are likely to be missing he letter t

    1 You have a difference in your Networking connectivity in Standby settings but I don't think it is significant as far as your problem goes.
    You allow your computer to remain connected to networks when in S0 Modern standby if you are on AC power but when you are on battery you let Windows decide.
    So, to help you decide which you want, have a look at
    Enable or Disable Network Connectivity in Modern Standby - TenForumsTutorials
    www.tenforums.com/tutorials/146593-enable-disable-network-connectivity-modern-standby-windows-10-a.html
    I have mine enabled because I regard S0 Modern standby as just a variant of being on and, if it's on, I want my other computers to be able to send files to it and I want it to continue with any internet-related jobs [such as downloading, updates] despite S0 kicking in.

    2 [Already posted] You have set Turn off hard disk after to 30 seconds. I can imagine that being disruptive during imaging - if there is a pause while Macrium thinks about things then it would have to wake disks up again before it writes the next bit of the image. Mine, just for comparison, is set to 5 minutes.
    - Perhaps the time taken to wake a disk up annoys macrium, perhaps it doesn't.
    - I have never experimented with this setting so I don't know what its practical effects would be.
    There's a TenForumsTutorial on how to add this item to those displayed in Power options, Advanced settings so you can change it in there.
    [link already posted]

    3 You have Wireless Adapter Settings, Power Saving Mode set to maximum performance on AC power and Medium Power Saving on battery. There's nothing wrong with that. You can access & change this setting in Power options, Advanced settings.

    4 You mentioned Away Mode Policy in one of your earlier posts. Yours is set to allow it on AC power but disallow it on DC power. Perhaps this needs discussion. I will need to dig out some old MS reference books to check exactly what this means.

    5 You have Sleep after set to Never on AC & 10 mins on battery. My S0 computer has both these set to 0. I think Windows ignores the enry for an S0 compuer anyway but you access & change this setting in Power options, Advanced settings.

    6 I think you also mentioned System unattended sleep timeout earlier on. Yours is set to 2 mins. So are both my S0 compuer and my S3 computer. I've never given any though to this setting but I imagine its precise definition is also in my old MS reference books.

    7 You have enabled Hybrid sleep. That's really only useful for desktop computers. I'd bet that Windows ignores this setting completely for S0 computers but I cannot be certain. Please check your Power options, Advanced settings to see if this item is shown within the Sleep group of settings. I hope so because explaining the alternative [another PowerCfg command] is awkward.

    8 You've set Hibernate after to 1 hour [AC] & 30 mins [battery]. I don't have any comment to make about that.

    9 You have enabled wake timers for AC but not for battery. Windows ignores the setting for S0 computers anyway.

    10 You have left Settings, Devices, USB, Stop devices if my screen is off set to On [its default]. Given that the problem you are experiencing is associated with USB connected devices, I suggest you clear that checkbox to avoid unwanted disconnections.
    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-stop-devices-if-my-screen-off.png


    All the best,
    Denis
    Ok, thanks.

    0. I never do backups on battery, so nothing that relates to battery should make any difference for my backup hibernation problem.

    1. The reason for staying connected to the network in s0 was to try to fix network lossage when doing backups over the network.

    2. I'm not sure I should change the hard disk timeout because system disk is ssd, as I noted in earlier reply.

    3. Just trying to get best performance from wifi.

    4. Macrium was putting in a request for away mode is why i mentioned it earlier. As i understand it, away mode prevents idle timeout if there are is no user input, but the documentation is quite opaque.

    5. I believe never and zero mean the same thing. There isn't much difference between "sleep" and s0, but there is some, so I just wanted to be sure that that setting doesn't screw things up. Just trying to keep things as simple as possible. For battery, ok, let it save a little power if it can.

    6. unattended sleep timeout is 2 minutes by default. This setting is what is causing my backup to hibernate after 2 minutes. The precise definition is when the machine wakes from sleep (or hibernate, or some other "sleep" state), if there is no user input within the timeout, it will go back to that sleep state after this amount of time. That is what is screwing me. For some reason that feature appears to be ignoring the power requests from Macrium on my machine that should keep it awake for the duration of the backup.

    7. Well, I didn't actually enable hybrid sleep, even if it says it's enabled. However, according to powercfg -a, that is not a supported sleep state on this machine anyway.

    9. Wake timers. I think that windows does NOT ignore this for laptops, or at least that's what I've read, and apparently these values are also the default.

    10. The USB setting in settings is confusing. I don't know where this goes in the registry. However, power management in device manager was off for the controller that the disk is on. It was on for another usb controller, but nothing is connected to that one. I turned it off. I also turned it off in settings. I doubt anything related to the disk is the problem, because I'm pretty confident that the unattended timeout is what is causing the problem.

    Thanks for taking the trouble to look through all this.

    --peter
      My Computers

  4. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #34

    Peer,

    5 "There isn't much difference between "sleep" and s0"

    There is a world of difference between Sleep & S0. They are not comparable at all.
    - Sleep - the computer is inactive
    - S0 Modern standby - the computer is operational albeit idle

    Yes, the value zero means Never. I should not have mixed both terms in the same para without explaining them.

    6 The setting can be changed but I did not notice in your earlier posts that the unwanted hibernation happened at a precise time. See Change System Unattended Sleep Timeout - TenForumsTutorials

    9 Wake timers - On my S0 computer, I can only get Task scheduler to run tasks if the computer is on [in use or in S0] but not when it is in hibernation - it cannot wake the computer. It's not being a laptop that makes the difference, it's having S0 instead of S3 Sleep.

    10 Power options are reflected in the Registry but I believe they need to be changed using PowerCfg. Many of them are in
    Code:
    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\ControlSet001\Control\Power
    but some might be scattered about elsewhere.
    - I once changed some in the Registry [as a test] instead but the changes were not implemented [they were either lost when I rebooted or the changes didn't change the actual behaviour at all - it was so long ago that I cannot remember it clearly enough - it might even have been with Windows 7].


    All the best,
    Denis
      My Computer

  5. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #35

    Peer,

    I've finished working my way through [all the way down to the last line, 1405] and I only have one additional observation. It might not even apply to you but I found it quite puzzling at the time so I thought I should mention it.

    11 I notice that you have set [or your defaults were set for you] Graphics settings, Dim display after to 585 secs [AC], 225 secs [battery]. Only one of my computers uses this setting and the others ignore it. If you do see the screen dimming after these periods then it can be stopped, if desired, using
    my ditty on stopping Dim display after … [post #3] - TenForums
    My S0 computer is not afflicted with this annoyance and yours might be free of it as well, in which case the setting is ignored so no action is required.


    All the best,
    Denis
      My Computer


  6. apb
    Posts : 87
    win 7 64bit
    Thread Starter
       #36

    Thanks.

    Note that i make a distinction between sleep and "sleep." "'sleep'" is what MS calls S0.

    I forget whether my machine dims the display or not. I don't find the dimming useful, since you can't see anything anyway, the monitor might as well get turned off. The dimming just makes you think that adaptive brightness is working or some similar unnecessary nonsense.

    In any case, for me the final upshot of all this is:

    1. System is hibernating during backup due to unattended idle timeout setting.
    2. Power requests by the backup program are not preventing this, don't know why.
    3. The workaround is to do the backup with a script that does one of:
      1. disable hibernation at start, re-enable at end.
      2. change unattended timeout at start to high value or never, restore at end
      3. run a keystroke emulater to defeat unattended timeout.

      Thanks to you guys for taking the time to help me with this.

      --peter
      My Computers

  7. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #37

    Peter,

    MS calls S0 a variety of names including S0 Modern standby & S0 Low Power Idle.
    - I think you're right that MS also use the term sleep in some articles about S0.

    A lot of MS components [such as Event logging] do not know that S0 exists because they have merely been tinkered with minimally since WinXP. How they refer to S0 is pure chance as is whether they recognise it at all.
    - Event logging, just for example, does not record the onset of S0 or resuming from it anywhere that I have been able to find.
    - Power requests might also not know of the existence of S0 and I suppose the very existence of S0 might disrupt their operation.
    - Task scheduler cannot cope with my S0 computer properly. Timed tasks can run when the computer is active or idle [i.e. S0] but cannot wake the computer from hibernation [despite all the appropriate settings having been made]. Yours can, I realise. Others have found the same as me - see, just for example, Scheduled wake from DRIPs (Modern Standby) - TenForums
    - I think S0 is here to stay because MS regards it as necessary for running Windows on smart devices & the 'internet of things'.

    The tutorial shows you the command to use so you could indeed change unattended timeout within your backup batch file.
    - I can understand the benefit of that tailored approach compared to just changing it once & leaving it at a high value.
    - I think manipulating unattended timeout in your backup batch file is a neater solution than my suggested SendKeys workaround.
    - I have always kept hibernation enabled but with its Power options timing set to Never so it's just something for me to use manually.
    - I run my backups during the day & only use Task scheduler to prompt me to consider running them. These days the only task I run that needs to wake the computer is my alarm call [a batch file to play loud lively music] and I have to use my S3 computer for that since the S0 one would have to be left on all night.

    I've added checking for S0 to my list of pre-purchase checks.
    - My S0 computer was always intended as an experiment but I'm certainly not going to buy a proper computer unless it has S3 Sleep.
    - I'll probably have to ask for powercfg -a results before purchase because I have learnt not to trust verbal statements by sales "help" desks.
    - I have not worked out what question to ask to get proof that Task scheduler can wake a computer from sleep & from hibernation. I'll probably just have to assume that if it has both S3 Sleep & Hibernation and does not have S0 that TS can wake it from both.



    All the best,
    Denis
    Last edited by Try3; 21 Nov 2021 at 04:33.
      My Computer


  8. apb
    Posts : 87
    win 7 64bit
    Thread Starter
       #38

    I have my doubts that proper sleep is going to be available any more, and if it is, MS will do their best to avoid it. Every "improvement" MS has made in Windows since XP has been a huge pain in the butt for me. With Win 10, they have eliminated so many customization options that the UI is virtually unusable for me, not to mention all the craziness that this thread has been going over, which also relates to the fact that documentation is nonexistent and real debugging is nearly impossible.

    At some point, I will have to just switch to linux, I guess. But, that's a whole lot of time burned up to do that, too.

    --peter
      My Computers

  9. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #39

    Try3 said:
    - Event logging, just for example, does not record the onset of S0 or resuming from it anywhere that I have been able to find.
    Peter,

    I made a mistake there. Another TenForums member, @hdmi, discovered that exiting S0 Modern standby is recorded iff Connected standby has been used.
    - Published in See Wake Source [incl HDMI #13] - TenForumsTutorials
    - The event is not the cause of exiting Connected standby but a record of that happening. My diagram illustrates that, in that case of mine, the exit was caused by my waving my mouse around.

    Log - System
    Source - Kernel power
    EventID - 507
    Zipped copy of this as an Event viewer, Custom view definition Power - S0 Connected standby - exit.zip

    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-power-s0-connected-standby-exit.png

    All the best,
    Denis
      My Computer

  10. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 10,049
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 21H2 Build 19044.1466
       #40

    Event viewer, Custom view, Power - Sleep-Hibernate-S0 transitions


    Peter,

    And @hdmi's discovery encouraged me to search again. There is also an event for entering S0 Connected standby.
    [and both the entering & exiting events are misleadingly labelled as entering/exiting S0 Connected standby even if they refer to S0 Disconnected standby]
    Log - System
    Source - Kernel power
    EventID - 506
    When I had originally looked for this, I did not have NirSoft's FullEventLogView [their Windows 10 successor to MyEventViewer]. It was this utility that enabled me to find it this time.

    Now that I've got the pair, I've integrated them into my existing Event viewer, Custom view, Sleep-Hibernate transitions because I like to have the same configurations on all my computers
    - On my S0 computer, this Custom view records entering & leaving S0 Modern standby, entering & leaving Hibernation.
    - On my proper computers [S3 computers], this Custom view records entering & leaving S3 Sleep & Hibernation.
    - Zipped copy of this new Event viewer, Custom view definition, Power - Sleep-Hibernate-S0 transitions
    Power - Sleep-Hibernate-S0 transitions.zip
    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-power-sleep-hibernate-s0-transitions.png
    - The lines above the selected ones are entering & leaving S0 Modern standby.
    - The two selected lines are entering & leaving Hibernation
    S3 Sleep & Hibernation can only be distinguished, in a computer that has both, by looking at the Details tab of the resume EventID 1 for Hiber* entries that are greater than 0; resuming from S3 Sleep would show Hiber* entries that have the value 0
    Resume from Hibernate, Details tab
    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-resume-hibernate-details-tab.png
    Resume from S3 Sleep, Details tab
    System hibernates despite "hibernate after" set to "never"-resume-s3-sleep-details-tab.png

    I have not found anything for S0 non-connected standby. As noted above, event records are misleadingly labelled as relating to S0 Connected standby whichever state is in force - Connected/Disconnected standby.

    I also found a reference to S0 Modern standby in
    Log - Microsoft-Windows-UniversalTelemetryClient/Operational
    Source - UniversalTelemetryClient
    EventID - 62 & possibly others
    Description - Is the device in connected standby: false / true
    but I couldn't think of a use for it.


    All the best,
    Denis
    Last edited by Try3; 22 Nov 2021 at 07:10.
      My Computer


 

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