Why do we have to go through all this hassle for Windows networking

  1. jimbo45's Avatar
    Posts : 10,460
    Windows / Linux : Arch Linux
       #1

    Why do we have to go through all this hassle for Windows networking


    Hi folks

    I really get tired of the number of times have to "Reset" routers, reboot loads of devices or clear out all connected devices on Windows Networking just to get a HOME network to run straight out of the box -- all this stuff like SMB level, net lan logon etc etc -- what a DOGS DINNER -- why can't Windows networking (at least on HOME COMPUTERS) work straight out of the box.

    Who needs on HOME networking to worry about 99% of the security stuff that corporate LAN's have to do -- also why on earth should typical home users have to worry about setting up DHCP Routing, IPTABLES/ EBTABLES, other routing, DHCP lease times etc etc --what a load of GARBAGE.

    Almost any Linux Distro I've used way back for at least 30 years Networking just works straight out of the box.

    Each New Windows 10 release or update makes it a complete lottery as to whether the update will hose the whole thing up ( actually a 66% or 2/3rds likelyhood of networking breaking judging by current statistics. !!).

    As far as Windows is concerned W7 seemed to have the least problems with connectivity -- C'mon Ms for HOME networks you don't need CIA / Military strength security to get the thing running -- most HOME users just want to be able to share files and stream stuff to locally connected (VIA HOME Lan's for Lan connected TV's, amazon fire sticks etc) hardware --hardly "Mission Critical" security needed for this.

    Cheers
    jimbo
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  2. Barman58's Avatar
    Posts : 3,927
    Windows 10 Pro x64 2004 - 19041 - 264 XP/Vista/Win7/Win8.1 in VM for testing
       #2

    I have worked with networks of hundreds and more windows systems and multiple servers, and they are no more likely to fail than others from Unix down.

    I've not seen any issues with windows 10 networking that was not caused by third party issues,

    There are issues with the old obsolete Microsoft SMBv1 protocol because other systems many of them Linux based (to keep costs down on licencing), ( TV software, NAS array Etc), have relied on it after it was scrapped by Microsoft years ago and replaced with more robust versions, TWICE!! so the lazy programming is not Microsofts

    The network stack is the same one used from Windows NT and onwards and the security is the same for all levels of the OS right up to Enterprise and the servers, if you leave it at defaults and don't mess with it it works, If you have to work with non standard equipment however it's flexible.
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  3. x509's Avatar
    Posts : 853
    Windows 10 Pro
       #3

    jimbo45 said:
    Hi folks

    I really get tired of the number of times have to "Reset" routers, reboot loads of devices or clear out all connected devices on Windows Networking just to get a HOME network to run straight out of the box -- all this stuff like SMB level, net lan logon etc etc -- what a DOGS DINNER -- why can't Windows networking (at least on HOME COMPUTERS) work straight out of the box.

    Who needs on HOME networking to worry about 99% of the security stuff that corporate LAN's have to do -- also why on earth should typical home users have to worry about setting up DHCP Routing, IPTABLES/ EBTABLES, other routing, DHCP lease times etc etc --what a load of GARBAGE.

    Almost any Linux Distro I've used way back for at least 30 years Networking just works straight out of the box.

    Each New Windows 10 release or update makes it a complete lottery as to whether the update will hose the whole thing up ( actually a 66% or 2/3rds likelyhood of networking breaking judging by current statistics. !!).

    As far as Windows is concerned W7 seemed to have the least problems with connectivity -- C'mon Ms for HOME networks you don't need CIA / Military strength security to get the thing running -- most HOME users just want to be able to share files and stream stuff to locally connected (VIA HOME Lan's for Lan connected TV's, amazon fire sticks etc) hardware --hardly "Mission Critical" security needed for this.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    My thoughts, and said better than I could. Only minor quibble is that Linux can also be a real hassle to set up for networking. I've watched friends try and fail.
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  4. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 7,390
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 20H2 Build 19042.868
       #4

    WorkGroup networking for Windows 7 & 10 are the same.

    I have had no problems at all.

    1 Created an admin user account on each computer with the same password on each
    2 Set all computers to use the same WorkGroup name - Control Panel\System
    3 Set desired shared folders on each computer - shared with Everyone {step 4 password-protected sharing took the curse off that}
    4 Set Control Panel\Network and Sharing Center\Advanced sharing settings, including password-protected sharing
    5 Turned on the router [then accessed it using a lan cable or its self-declared wifi ip address] and used its instructions to set SSIDs & passwords for its 2.4GHz & 5GHz networks, turned the networks on.
    6 Connected computers to network, made it a discoverable network on each i.e. a private network
    7 Accessed a shared folder across the network, authorised it once-only using the common admin user account & telling it to remember the credentials
    [I might have had to repeat step 7 once-only for each computer. My notes are not clear on this point.]
    Job done.

    I have not used a USB drive connected to the router itself.
    I only had Windows Defender & no adjustments were needed. I don't know if that is the case with other AV utilities.

    I subsequently added a WiFi printer to the network by following the instructions that it came with.

    Denis
    Last edited by Try3; 16 Feb 2020 at 03:11.
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  5. Barman58's Avatar
    Posts : 3,927
    Windows 10 Pro x64 2004 - 19041 - 264 XP/Vista/Win7/Win8.1 in VM for testing
       #5

    I have a 4TB HDD in a case attached to my router, it needs the router set up to share any data on the drive with the system but it's simple enough, though for some reason still uses SMB1 for some things - this is a year old Netgear Nighthawk router, I suppose they use an old linux system for cost cutting reasons, but it works
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  6. Try3's Avatar
    Posts : 7,390
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 20H2 Build 19042.868
       #6

    Jimbo,

    Typical home users do not have to worry about setting up

    jimbo45 said:
    DHCP Routing, IPTABLES/ EBTABLES, other routing, DHCP lease times etc etc


    I disagree with your statement about updates breaking networks. I have never experienced this.
    jimbo45 said:
    Each New Windows 10 release or update makes it a complete lottery as to whether the update will hose the whole thing up ( actually a 66% or 2/3rds likelyhood of networking breaking judging by current statistics. !!).
    Perhaps breakage occurs as a result of fiddling with DHCP Routing, IPTABLES/ EBTABLES, other routing, DHCP lease times etc etc

    Denis
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  7. jimbo45's Avatar
    Posts : 10,460
    Windows / Linux : Arch Linux
    Thread Starter
       #7

    Hi folks

    Home networking is often used to stream multimedia to a variety of devices e.g TV's / firestick / roku boxes and the like --- this is where the whole thing is likely to break as these devices are not updated all that often and usually have the older protocols in them. Many older stand alone NAS servers only support SMB1 as well and if these things work why should people just toss them and upgrade.

    Even KODI which loads of people use use in all sorts of systems doesn't "play nice" with protocols > SMB1 --even release 18 Leia.

    If it's just bog standard file sharing then I agree it will work but the main problem comes with the whole "Multi-media" streaming issue and connecting Non Windows devices with all sorts of different OS'es in them.

    Ms can do whatever it likes on Windows --nothing wrong with trying to make the OS as secure as possible -- but Ms should recognize that there is other hardware out there and Networking is no longer niche -- almost every household these days has some sort of Home Network.

    It's funny how (and I'm no Mac / Apple fan) Macbooks seem to work OK too -- and if as some say problem is caused by 3rd party hardware -- well seems pretty bonkers to me to say that you can't expect windows networking to function with non Windows equipment -- unless Ms starts getting into the business of manufacturing TV sets, and all sort of other hardware !!!.

    It all seemed to go a bit pear shaped after W7 -- W7 seemed to have very few connectivity issues as I remember -- fiddling around with SMB started the whole rot (IMO). I also maintain you don't need Military strength / C.I.A standard protection on typical home networks either. !!

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My Computer


  8. Posts : 386
    W10
       #8

    I cannot follow the argument. SMB1 connections with my Linux devices (satellite receivers, Pi / Kodi mediaplayer) is straightforward. Setting the ip number in explorer, connection is made.
    In contrast, SMB2 connections with other computers is less straightforward. One have to set sharing options, security options and authentication.
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  9. Barman58's Avatar
    Posts : 3,927
    Windows 10 Pro x64 2004 - 19041 - 264 XP/Vista/Win7/Win8.1 in VM for testing
       #9

    The windows 7 reference is understandable when discussing potential and actual networking issues .... apart from geeks like me, (or Pro IT workers, also like me), ten years ago when Windows 7 came out, ( I was using it on a production machine many months before release) very few people streamed anything at all on anything, so most of the issues came to light on Windows 7.

    I actually find it quite amusing to see people on Linux forums demanding that microsoft leave SMB1 alone as it's a part of linux, it's microsoft code that others have used as it works, now when time passes the whole ecosystem has changed. In the late Noughties the threats were different, the worst of them were viruses written by students sat in their Mom's basement, to "prove they could"

    These days we have professional criminals writing code for pure profit reasons, and these are not aimed at the major multinationals, banks and governments, who have sophisticated security in addition to the base level included in the OS. The targets are not even the majority of those who join Forums such as ours, (apparently there is some nonsense going around that other forums exist ) ), who are computer savvy and often themselves have high levels of security, it is the basic user that is targeted for either direct theft or for the inclusion of their systems in multinational BotNets.

    BotNets are used for brute force attacks on governments and multinationals of course

    It is therefore good common sense for the OS used by everyone to be hardened to a higher level that may be required to stop direct access attacks for relatively minor financial gain.

    The current version of the SMB protocol is SMB3 introduced with Windows 8, which replaced Microsoft's open SMB2 protocol from 2006 with vista and also used for Windows 7 (windows 10 actually runs a later variation SMB 3.1.1).

    Despite reports to the contrary, any of the SMB protocols can still be used with windows, a serious potential issue or two with the SMB1 protocol has resulted in it being depreciated in Windows 10 (and switched off by default) it still works fine. I do not know why 3rd party developers continue to use SMB1, but they are the problem not the solution. Microsoft have always treated these as open standards so there is no financial reason I can see
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  10. jimbo45's Avatar
    Posts : 10,460
    Windows / Linux : Arch Linux
    Thread Starter
       #10

    PiKo said:
    I cannot follow the argument. SMB1 connections with my Linux devices (satellite receivers, Pi / Kodi mediaplayer) is straightforward. Setting the ip number in explorer, connection is made.
    In contrast, SMB2 connections with other computers is less straightforward. One have to set sharing options, security options and authentication.
    Hi there

    Exactly --that's the whole point -- once SMB2 or greater is involved then this is where it gets more complex and most typical home users want stuff to work essentially straight out of the box. !!!!

    I'm also not changing satellite receiver / kodi etc etc either just to accomodate latest versions of W10 !!!!!!.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My Computer


 

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