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  1.    09 Mar 2015 #21
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Posts : 34
    Windows Technical Preview x64, build 10041
    Thread Starter

    Will Free Windows 10 "Upgrade" work with Clean Install (CMPXCHG16b)?


    DavidY seems to be the only one here who truly understands the issue, and his summary is cogent and right to the point: He says he doesn't know. Fair enough.

    We simply don't know how Microsoft is finally going to handle this "upgrade" policy, with regard to clean installations, how their licensing schema will work, and whether this CMPXCHG16b instruction nonsense will continue.

    My additional takeaway (plus a bit of editorializing):

    Also unknown is whether Microsoft will continue to drop Windows 10 x64 support for "old", 2005-vintage (but otherwise perfectly fine) CPUs, such as my 2.2 GHz AMD X2 4400+ dual core processor, but will continue to claim that Windows 8.X and Windows 10 can run perfectly fine on 1 GHz single-core processors - the first of which became available around March of 2000, which is now 15 years ago.

    I don't get it. Does Microsoft believe that the year 2005 is older than the year 2000? I guess when it comes to supporting certain AMD processors on Windows 8.1 and Windows 10 x64, they do.
    Last edited by Trev0r09; 09 Mar 2015 at 21:10.
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  2.    09 Mar 2015 #22
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Texas
    Posts : 10,990
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    I think post 15 explained it. It's time for some new hardware.
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  3.    09 Mar 2015 #23
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Posts : 34
    Windows Technical Preview x64, build 10041
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude View Post
    I think post 15 explained it. It's time for some new hardware.
    Microsoft apparently doesn't think that it's time for new hardware if it's from the year 2000, if it's single core, and if it runs at 1 GHz. But if it's from the year 2005, if it's dual core, and if it runs at 2.2 GHz, then Microsoft *does* think that it's time for new hardware. Yeah, that makes sense.
    Last edited by Trev0r09; 09 Mar 2015 at 15:49.
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  4.    09 Mar 2015 #24
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    I don't buy into the idea that you won't be able to do a clean install of Win10 on your machine. The machine runs Win8 so I'm confident that it will run Win10 with a "clean install" of the appropriate ISO from a DVD or a USB drive.
    It runs Windows 8, but not 8.1. 10 is based on 8.1.

    8.1 had an internal change that removed the CMPXCHG16b software emulation patch, apparently for security reasons according to at least one blog entry which claimed to have an official Microsoft Spokesperson behind it.

    Windows 8 had special code that emulated this instruction. That's why it works with Windows 8, but no in 8.1 and not in 10.

    And the differences between Enterprise and Standard/Pro would have nothing to do with this emulation is my point.
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  5.    09 Mar 2015 #25
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    With my previous PC I was able to run Win7Pro(64bit) without a hitch. But when I used Win8/WIn8.1 I would run into issues with the chip-set on the motherboard made by Intel. There were no upgrades to make the older motherboard compatible with the newer OS(Win8/Win8.1). While the PS would run fine the problem came in when I had to shut it down for any prolonged period of time and when I went to restart it I would encounter a lot of errors resulting in my need to reinstall Win8.1.

    That's why I spent the money and got new hardware so I could use Win8.1 and Win10 properly when it came out. Nothing lasts forever and some upgrades should be expected.

    Just my 2c.. YMMV..
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  6.    09 Mar 2015 #26
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 194
    Win10

    The problem?


    Quote Originally Posted by Trev0r09 View Post
    hi, banger --

    "...list of CPUs excluded from win 10?"

    Not that I'm aware of, no -

    but I do know that a lot of AMD Socket 939 CPUs from the 2005 era, and some intel Pentium D 8XX (and possibly 9XX) dual-core CPUs, and some Core2 Quad CPUs will also have the same problem with this CMPXCHG16b CPU instruction, and will not do Windows 8.1 or Windows (10) Technical Preview in-place upgrades from Win 7 / 8.X. In some cases, even if the CPU isn't the problem, the chipset and/or motherboard itself may be.

    This whole CMPXCHG16b instruction thing smells fishy to me. More M$ greed? (in bed with Intel / AMD / motherboard OEM's?)

    - Trev
    I still don't see the problem.........

    from Wikipedia..............
    "Older implementations[edit]

    • Early AMD64 processors lacked the CMPXCHG16B instruction, which is an extension of the CMPXCHG8B instruction present on most post-80486 processors. Similar to CMPXCHG8B, CMPXCHG16B allows for atomic operations on octal words. This is useful for parallel algorithms that use compare and swap on data larger than the size of a pointer, common in lock-free and wait-free algorithms. Without CMPXCHG16B one must use workarounds, such as a critical section or alternative lock-free approaches.[41] Its absence also prevents 64-bit Windows prior to Windows 8.1 from having a user-mode address space larger than 8 terabytes.[42] The 64-bit version of Windows 8.1 requires the instruction.[43]
    • Early AMD64 and Intel 64 CPUs lacked LAHF and SAHF instructions in 64-bit mode. AMD introduced these instructions (also in 64-bit mode) with their Athlon 64, Opteron and Turion 64 revision D processors in March 2005[44][45][46] while Intel introduced the instructions with the Pentium 4 G1 stepping in December 2005. The 64-bit version of Windows 8.1 requires this feature.[43]
    • Early Intel CPUs with Intel 64 also lack the NX bit of the AMD64 architecture. This feature is required by all versions of Windows 8.x.
    • Early Intel 64 implementations only allowed access to 64 GB of physical memory while original AMD64 implementations allowed access to 1 TB of physical memory. Recent AMD64 implementations provide 256 TB of physical address space (and AMD plans an expansion to 4 PB),[citation needed] while some Intel 64 implementations could address up to 64 TB.[47] Physical memory capacities of this size are appropriate for large-scale applications (such as large databases), and high-performance computing (centrally oriented applications and scientific computing)."


    and still contend that your machine will run Win10 from a clean install!

    Are you anticipating a problem with getting the media and doing a clean install?

    Do you feel that an upgrade is better than a clean install?

    There's something here that I don't understand?

    Maybe the procedure of installing an OS from media to a wiped drive is a concern?
    Not to worry! We all do it all the time!

    Tell us something besides it won't work, you're sure it won't work, and it ain't no damn good!
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  7.    09 Mar 2015 #27
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Posts : 804
    10 Pro Preview x64

    Roger, your own quote explains the problem
    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    The 64-bit version of Windows 8.1 requires the instruction.
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  8.    09 Mar 2015 #28
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Posts : 1,395
    Windows 10 Pro (32-bit) 16299.15

    Quote Originally Posted by Trev0r09 View Post
    DavidY seems to be the only one here who truly understands the issue


    For what it's worth, I'm pretty confident that Mystere understands the issue better than I do.
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  9.    09 Mar 2015 #29
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Posts : 34
    Windows Technical Preview x64, build 10041
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Roger View Post
    I still don't see the problem.........

    from Wikipedia..............
    "Older implementations[edit]


    • Early AMD64 processors lacked the CMPXCHG16B instruction, which is an extension of the CMPXCHG8B instruction present on most post-80486 processors. Similar to CMPXCHG8B, CMPXCHG16B allows for atomic operations on octal words. This is useful for parallel algorithms that use compare and swap on data larger than the size of a pointer, common in lock-free and wait-free algorithms. Without CMPXCHG16B one must use workarounds, such as a critical section or alternative lock-free approaches.[41] Its absence also prevents 64-bit Windows prior to Windows 8.1 from having a user-mode address space larger than 8 terabytes.[42] The 64-bit version of Windows 8.1 requires the instruction.[43]
    • Early AMD64 and Intel 64 CPUs lacked LAHF and SAHF instructions in 64-bit mode. AMD introduced these instructions (also in 64-bit mode) with their Athlon 64, Opteron and Turion 64 revision D processors in March 2005[44][45][46] while Intel introduced the instructions with the Pentium 4 G1 stepping in December 2005. The 64-bit version of Windows 8.1 requires this feature.[43]
    • Early Intel CPUs with Intel 64 also lack the NX bit of the AMD64 architecture. This feature is required by all versions of Windows 8.x.
    • Early Intel 64 implementations only allowed access to 64 GB of physical memory while original AMD64 implementations allowed access to 1 TB of physical memory. Recent AMD64 implementations provide 256 TB of physical address space (and AMD plans an expansion to 4 PB),[citation needed] while some Intel 64 implementations could address up to 64 TB.[47] Physical memory capacities of this size are appropriate for large-scale applications (such as large databases), and high-performance computing (centrally oriented applications and scientific computing)."


    and still contend that your machine will run Win10 from a clean install!

    Are you anticipating a problem with getting the media and doing a clean install?

    Do you feel that an upgrade is better than a clean install?

    There's something here that I don't understand?

    Maybe the procedure of installing an OS from media to a wiped drive is a concern?
    Not to worry! We all do it all the time!

    Tell us something besides it won't work, you're sure it won't work, and it ain't no damn good!

    Thanks for your prompt replies, Roger -

    Here's the problem: I am wondering if I can get the full, final Microsoft Windows 10 64-bit operating system - when Microsoft finally releases it to retail - as a "free upgrade", even though I cannot install it using the "In Place Upgrade" procedure when booted into Windows 7. I cannot install it this way because the "In Place Procedure" requires the CMPXCHG16b CPU instruction, which my AMD 64 X2 Athlon 4400+ (Socket 939) CPU does not have in its instruction set.

    A clean, full-wipe install of Windows 10 64-bit does *NOT* require this instruction, and does not look for it. I have successfully done this installation on my PC using this exact same processor, and it installed Windows 10 x64 and runs fine, without a hitch.

    To reiterate: Even though the only way I can install Windows 10 64-bit on this system is to do a full disk wipe/format, clean, full install (instead of the In-Place Upgrade procedure within Windows 7), I am wondering if I will nevertheless be able to take advantage of the Microsoft Free Upgrade policy (which is good for a year after Windows 10 is officially released), thereby getting Windows 10 free of charge. Would I somehow "convert" my Windows 7 x64 Home Premium Product Key over to Windows 10?

    (And no, saying "buy a new PC" or "it's time for new hardware" do not count as answers.)
    Last edited by Trev0r09; 09 Mar 2015 at 17:41.
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  10.    09 Mar 2015 #30
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    Ok, MS is likely going to provide a DVD for clean instillation I suspect and you can purchase that and make use of it.

    But, keep in mind that from the release of WIn10 on the thought is that MS will only provide updates/upgrades to the OS and no more ISOs. So in the end the processor will have to be able to handle this one way or the other.
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