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  1.    06 Feb 2016 #11
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 117
    Windows 10 Home Premium
    Thread Starter

    Okay... After getting the initial from dalchina, where he mentioned that the 'best approach <would be> to create a Win 10 install disk and proceed from there', which led to believe that no disk would be necessary. Since the PC never even booted into Windows, but only to the troubleshooter, I assumed that the troubleshooter was outside of Windows, and that it was part of the computer BIOS. Which, of course made me think that the troubleshooter would still be available even with a new hard drive. Sadly that seems not to be the case. I (naively, apparently) thought that since Microsoft had moved the product key to the BIOS that they found some method of getting the troubleshooting and recovery there as well. (Everybody stop rolling their eyes). I keep hearing that Microsoft keeps making these things more idiot proof and easier to fix and troubleshoot, etc.....

    Well, if the HDD goes bad you still need a disk of some sort. And the manufacturers still refuse to supply them with a purchase. So in my case I'm really worse off than if I'd been running Windows 98. I'd have just fished out the disk, popped it into the DVD drive and reinstalled, then copied my stuff from the backup. Now I have to jump through what seems to be significantly more hoops - and I still don't know what I need in the way of tools. Do I need a flash drive for Macrium, or can I just use blank DVDs. I assume that when I download the Windows 10 iso file that a single DVD will be sufficient for storing the image file?
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  2.    06 Feb 2016 #12
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 9,550
    Windows 10 Pro

    Windows does not store product keys or any other information in bios. The troubleshooting menu is part of the Windows recovery environment which is a separate partition on your hard drive. To make a Windows installation disk or Macrium Rescue disk, a blank DVD will work.
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  3.    06 Feb 2016 #13
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Posts : 3,361
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc

    Well here's a list of things to cross examine if you prefer.
    1)Download 10 - Noting blank dvd-r not large enough for 4 in 1 or dual edition iso download to start with since max on blank dvds is typically under 4gb! While some expanded disks may offer the 8gb capacity try to find any?! Threshold 2 download to immediate upgrade not feasible when not even able to boot into Windows to run the MC tool. Therefore download and save to folder on drive on any machine best option!

    2)Creation of 10 media advising 8gb or larger due to increased size of TH2 by way of MC tool or direct download from Tech Bench Program page

    3)Creating image of trashed OS and drive loaded with disk errors "POORLY ADVISED"! That's a disaster in the making from the start! The time to see any full system image backup made is AFTER everything is on and working 100% as possible! Anything esle will only lead to some major headaches either immediate or delayed.

    4)Upgrade to Repair type of install to preserve paid for programs long enough to see uninstalled while connected online to preserve product licenses with 3rd party softwares for fresh install after a fresh full clean install of everything would be an extra step to save on the need to repurchase the same all over again being why you might take that option while for things you can simply toss back on following a clean install even following a full wipe of the drive including repartitioning to start fresh on a brand new primary is something the more advanced user is likely to see to having everything already backed up elsewhere which you have there.

    So how am I doing so far? The run of the Disk Check tool and even if you get back into 10 again a run of the "sfc /scannow" SFC=System File Checker tool won't guaranty not wanting to see a good working fresh start since the upgrade is what apparently came out buggy and certainly nothing you would create an image of!

    The reason for unplugging the external drive is obviously a new situation being seen now with the 10 install compared to the past versions where only a second OS previously would need to be unplugged to prevent the mbr, GPT, boot loader, etc. from ending up in the wrong place. While first trying to get the initial upgrade to go on here it wouldn't! Why? The boot files ended up on Storage drive #2 while the temporary installation folders ended up being found on Storage drive #1.

    Those are the "$Windows~BT" and with the 64bit OS also the "$Windows~WS" folders(not always seen) which remain on the drive once 10 goes you also have right there to see a repair install going if you are able to get back into Windows again that is. Tried the F8 Safe mode option? And yes the recovery tools are on the second or third OEM partition which may actually be at the front of the drive while the System Reserved is at the back of the drive.

    With a custom install the System Reserved generally ends up being the first in line when the drive is new and you allow the Windows installer to prep the drive not already having been partitioned and formatted. If you should find that the present hard drive is shot then this is what you will be seeing. The setup.exe file to start up the 10 installer however is found with the initial upgrade in one of those two folders that sees not only the "Sources" folder but opens to the "Windows" folder also containing a second "source" with small S sub folder that contains the "install.esd" file that can be turned into an ISO! ESD to ISO - Create Bootable ISO from Windows 10 ESD File - Windows 10 Forums

    Note the guide there is from late 2014 while 10 was still in the Alpha stages before reaching beta and onto the Tech Preview builds seen by the Windows Insider Program. When just trying to use the conversion tool here all I would see is a split second flash of what looked like a command prompt window opening and closing in a flash ruling that option out at this time. The MS tool will provided the 4 in 1 iso which is good if later you find a Pro machine running 7, 8, or 8.1 you are asked to upgrade or simply prefer to move up from the Home edition.
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  4.    06 Feb 2016 #14
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 117
    Windows 10 Home Premium
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR View Post
    Windows does not store product keys or any other information in bios. The troubleshooting menu is part of the Windows recovery environment which is a separate partition on your hard drive.
    http://www.cnet.com/news/windows-8-m...-product-keys/
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  5.    06 Feb 2016 #15
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Posts : 3,361
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc

    On the newer machines not custom builds but newer OEM premade systems that is quite true. The OEM product key is bound to the hardware in that fashion over simply seeing the typical software made hardware profile id assigned a product key found on a sticker only. That's programmed into firmware there not necessarily the bios setup program itself however. They simply flash that onto an eprom chip on the same board but in the event the bios chip needs replacement it would have to be on a separate chip. Boards made for OEMs are not quite the same as those found at a vendor like Newegg or TigerDirect but could be the same model at the same time but were special ordered to have that extra chip as well as some other changes seen.
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  6.    06 Feb 2016 #16
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 9,550
    Windows 10 Pro

    And my statement is still true. Windows does not and never has stored product keys in bios, nor will Windows change product keys stored in bios. Computer manufacturers burn product keys in their bios - not Windows.
    Last edited by NavyLCDR; 07 Feb 2016 at 00:14.
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  7.    06 Feb 2016 #17
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Posts : 3,361
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc

    Not the bios setup program itself mind you! But simply flashed onto an eprom likely an extra one added onto boards just for this purpose to insure the serial number as well as key are tucked away safely. That also makes it much easier for companies to trace hardwares back for service warranties and other things as well.
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  8.    07 Feb 2016 #18
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    New Orleans Northshore
    Posts : 246
    Win 10 pro Upgraded from 8.1

    Quote Originally Posted by boweasel View Post
    Okay... After getting the initial from dalchina, where he mentioned that the 'best approach <would be> to create a Win 10 install disk and proceed from there', which led to believe that no disk would be necessary. Since the PC never even booted into Windows, but only to the troubleshooter, I assumed that the troubleshooter was outside of Windows, and that it was part of the computer BIOS. Which, of course made me think that the troubleshooter would still be available even with a new hard drive. Sadly that seems not to be the case. I (naively, apparently) thought that since Microsoft had moved the product key to the BIOS that they found some method of getting the troubleshooting and recovery there as well. (Everybody stop rolling their eyes). I keep hearing that Microsoft keeps making these things more idiot proof and easier to fix and troubleshoot, etc.....

    Well, if the HDD goes bad you still need a disk of some sort. And the manufacturers still refuse to supply them with a purchase. So in my case I'm really worse off than if I'd been running Windows 98. I'd have just fished out the disk, popped it into the DVD drive and reinstalled, then copied my stuff from the backup. Now I have to jump through what seems to be significantly more hoops - and I still don't know what I need in the way of tools. Do I need a flash drive for Macrium, or can I just use blank DVDs. I assume that when I download the Windows 10 iso file that a single DVD will be sufficient for storing the image file?
    I can help you out with a video that explains how to use Macrium Reflect to clone a hard drive to a SSD, same procedure would be used to clone your current hard drive to a new hard drive. The software can just as easily be used to create an image and restore it to a new hard drive.

    I believe in your OP you ran scandisk and that allowed you to boot into windows while still getting the SMART Error message that a disk failure is eminent ? If that is true you have a good chance of cloning or Imaging successfully since your issue isn't really windows but a hard drive failing. Defiantly worth a try
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  9.    07 Feb 2016 #19
    Join Date : Apr 2014
    Posts : 3,361
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc

    Scandisk hasn't been seen since the XP days. The tool in use at this would be the Disk Check tool. That was initially tried while the recommendation for a second run with both switches was advised to see if any progress could be made.

    Otherwise cloning rather then seeing a clean install would not only be a time consumer as restoring a full system image after seeing it created takes far less time would be pointless if the drive is simply too messed up? You would simply seeing the exact problems spread between drives!

    When going to replace a drive either a fresh primary followed by a clean install of the OS is the best option unless an image was being restored that had been made while things were in prime condition. If the drive is failing which is still an unknown at the moment getting the last minute items backed up manually before a complete fail would be the best move. Once the drive is replaced the need to start over fresh will have it's own benefits rather then carrying problems over.

    The last clone here of a 1gb drive will less then 400gb total on at the time took hours! to clone to the exact same identical drive in preparation for trying the 10 upgrade out. Having left the other drives plugged while the first OS drive had been unplugged wasn't enough to prevent the mess that came about!
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  10.    07 Feb 2016 #20
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 117
    Windows 10 Home Premium
    Thread Starter

    I set up the PC to run chkdsk /r /f at boot and it detected no errors, so I ran it again. Still no errors. And except for having to press F1 to boot the machine seems to be fine. So I'd like to disable SMART, but I don't know how.

    This is an HP Pavilion TouchSmart 23 All-In-One unit. I can access the BIOS by holding <shift> while shutting down, then tapping <esc> while starting up, but I see no reference to SMART.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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