Windows 10: Ridiculous installation requirement

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  1.    07 Jan 2015 #51

    Kari, I understand your point about security. But adding all these little features is not going to suffice. They have to do something drastic about the construct of the kernel so that people cannot get in so easily. Plus we need a new internet that filters or prevents the malware before it even gets to us.

    Think of mom and pap who now have to deal with all those complications. I think it is too much. My easy way out is Linux for web work. But that may only be a temporary solution.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  2.    07 Jan 2015 #52

    Kari said: View Post
    Lady Fitzgerald said: View Post
    More I read here, the less likely I'll leave Win 7. Yeesh!
    Somewhat strange comment.

    You mean that because it's possible to use Windows 8 and later with an MS Account for sign in in addition to a local account as in Windows 7, and because said MS Account has added security features for instance asking a security code once when a user account using it is created, you will not upgrade your Windows 7?

    I've heard a lot but your comment takes the price. In times when the online security has clearly become extremely important, accounts and services hacked and hijacked almost daily, one small added security feature is for some users The Reason not to upgrade Windows. "I will not upgrade my Windows 7 because of the security code asked once when I use a later Windows with MS Account!".

    Kari
    I refuse to have an M$ account because I do not give out any of phone numbers except to aa very select few (especially my cell phone) because of the way they hav been abused in the past and because M$ insists that I have ALL cookies enabled on my machines (which is so NOT going to happen; they are my machines and I will determine what goes on them!).
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  3. Posts : 1,511
    Win-7Prox64 Win-8.1Prox64 Win-10Prox64
       07 Jan 2015 #53

    I do have a couple of Microsoft accounts
    I wouldn't necessarily want to connect that to a computers login though for many personal reasons
    One that Jimbo tossed out there that displays the email address which didn't occur to me :/

    But either way it's just personal preferences use it or not

    Point is why can't anyone enter anything
    By now Microsoft should be able to tell if you entered an email address or a normal local user name and password
    Seems simple enough to me but then again it is out of line of Microsoft's scheme to use a email account for all of the live app to load on startup,
    Another point of view is I don't want live app's at all
    I have enough goodies starting with windows as it is
    Cheers.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  4. Posts : 3,506
    Win_8.1-Pro, Win_10.1607-Pro, Mint_17.3
       07 Jan 2015 #54

    Kari said: View Post
    Going back to OP's original issue and questions about it, I think a summary of facts might be a good idea.
     Facts about MS Account

    There are two different types of MS Accounts:

    1.) MS Account using a Microsoft hosted email service excluding Office 365 email addresses. Accepted email services are Outlook.com, Hotmail.com, Live.com, MSN.com and their localized counterparts like Hotmail.fi, Hotmail.co.jp or Live.co.uk

    - Additional email address and / or phone number is required when the email account is created

    - Account can be used as sign in account to Windows 8 or later, security code required when setting up Windows sign in access will be sent to the secondary contact email or phone if no other method is set up in MS Account's security settings (additional email address or phone number, Authenticator app)

    - Emails can be checked, received and sent using web interface for Outlook.com / Hotmail.com / Live.com

    2.) MS Account using a third party email service including Microsoft Office 365 email.

    - No additional email address or phone number is needed when MS Account is setup

    - Account can be used as sign in account to Windows 8 or later, security code required when setting up Windows sign in access will be sent to the third party email in question if no other method is set up in MS Account's security settings (additional email address or phone number, Authenticator app)

    - Emails can be sent but not checked / received using web interface for Outlook.com / Hotmail.com / Live.com
     In addition


    • The use of an MS Account (type 1 or 2 as explained above) as sign in account for Windows 8 or later is well documented both by Microsoft and for instance our forums (Seven Forums, Eight Forums and Ten Forums)

    • Using a local account instead of MS Account to sign in to Windows is not a solution nor a workaround to avoid use of security code because a local account does not offer the same level of synchronization and other services as an MS Account

    • Setting up an MS Account, be it type 1 or 2 as explained above without any additional security measures and then running into problems when user's only access to email is the very same device he / she is currently installing Windows can easily be avoided by getting to know the MS Account's security settings and setting up a security phone number and / or the Authenticator app prior to installing Windows

    • When installing Windows or setting up an additional user account using an MS Account will only require the security code once during the initial account set up. The code will never again be asked when signing in to Windows later on the same device


    For security settings and other methods to get the security code when using type 1 MS Account, see this post.

    <- see original post for image removed from quote ->
     Additional information


    Kari
    There is only one type of Microsoft Account (MSA).

    The eMail address used to set up access to MS services is inconsequential, with the possible exception of Microsoft Office 365 (MSO 365) eMail client. I do not have it to test, so I defer to your experience.

    To establish a Microsoft Account, all you need is an eMail address and create password for the MSA. Here's where it all started:
    What is a Microsoft account?
    "Microsoft account" is the new name for what used to be called a "Windows Live ID."

    Your Microsoft account is the combination of an email address and a password that you use to sign in to services like Outlook.com, OneDrive, Windows Phone, or Xbox LIVE.
    ...
    Microsoft does not have any control over the 3rd party eMail address a user might use to establish a MSA, therefore they cannot enforce Microsoft Authentication.

    I'm a bit confused by the eMail distinctions and how it relates to installing Windows (since your post began with Going back to OP's original issue...).

    I used an AOL eMail address to setup an Outlook.com account when MS offered it as it's flagship Web based eMail. The verification process sent a code, which was required to complete setup, to that AOL address . So there is, or was, MS Authentication on Outlook.com (a MS property).

    The Outlook.com eMail address is considered by Microsoft to be a MSA:
    Microsoft accounts
    Windows tutorial: Page 2 of 11

    If you’ve used Microsoft services in the past—like Xbox, Hotmail, Outlook.com, OneDrive, Messenger, Skype, or Windows Phone
    —you already have a Microsoft account (it's the email address you use to sign in).

    If you can't remember the email address you used with those services, that's okay—you can sign up for a new, free email address.
    I think we are in agreement up to this point, even though our point of reference differs. The agreement ends however, when, on your 2nd list item, you say Emails can be sent but not checked / received using web interface for Outlook.com / Hotmail.com / Live.com. Here, I have a different experience:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I use POP3 across the board because Windows Essentials Mail (WEM) will only process Rules for POP3 accounts.

    This leaves MSO 365 eMail as the sole distinction in your two types of MSA argument. I'll assume it is Outlook that you refer to as MSO 365 eMail. Could you tell me if MSO 365 eMail client supports the POP3 protocol, I know Outlook 97 did, but that's ancient knowledge If it does then that might remove it as being a distinction.

    It's not that our facts are different, it's our understanding of facts. In this case, MSA, has so many pieces that facts are often obfuscated by the sheer weight of it all.

    I think we are both trying to get everyone reading from the same page. In that vein, I will explain my understanding of a MSA.
    • a Microsoft Account is a single login that allows users to access Microsoft services from various devices.
    • to establish a MSA, you only need an eMail account and create a password for the MSA.

    • Microsoft will setup an eMail account for you if you do not already have one, but any eMail address can be used.

    • The fully qualified eMail address and password used to establish the MSA is your single login across the Microsoft properties.
      I consider it cumbersome due to type my fully qualified eMail address and password to login in to a service, but that is because of the way I configure my browser (don't save passwords & delete browser history on exit). I can't complain if I cause the difficulty - although MS could make IE a bit more cookie friendly, similar to the way cCleaner defines Smart Cookies.

    • once a MSA is created, you can use the single login to access any and all of the MS properties and devices(Xbox, Hotmail, Outlook.com, OneDrive, Messenger, Skype, or Windows Phone, Windows 8)
      I can only attest to Outlook.com, OneDrive, Skype, and Windows 8. For the others, I am relying on what MS has documented, a bit of extrapolation, and a bit of industry experience.


    I use the term umbrella account and the image MS posted on one of the sites I visited to support my position exemplifies what I mean by the term.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Regarding the additional information you posted. Here we have a much greater difference of opinion. There is no right or wrong, there's only how it is and how we think it could be changed or improved.

    I have the highest regards for you Kari, the responses below should be interpreted only as a difference of opinion. They might sound argumentative if taken the wrong way. I've rewritten them a number of times, but it seems to be getting stronger, not softer, so I'll leave it as it is and hope everyone understands that a strong opinion does not imply anything other than a strong opinion.
    • Well documented doesn't do the user any good if they haven't read the documentation. RTFM is usually uttered by one person to another person who is having difficulty with something. If you are installing Windows and a knowledgeable person is not watching over your shoulder, then you are SOL. I simply do not accept that as a real world argument.
      If the screen was more intuitive, perhaps ... but it isn't, and that is the point of making the OOBE a good one. The information has to be put up front and the choices clear.

    • Please elaborate on why using a local account to login to Windows, nay to complete an install of Windows, isn't a solution. Avoiding Microsoft Authentication Services (security code) is not a fair characterization of the issue whs presented. I understand the point you make though, with a MSA there are benefits such as backing up your data and keeping it synchronized on all of your devices. By adding your configuration to the equation, the user can have a singular presentation across many platforms (Desktop/laptop, Phone, Surface)

    • This bullet directly addresses the issue whs raised. I think Wolfgang is a smart man and he saw the process as an issue for a normal end user. I revert back to the screen not being intuitive.
      All of the security offered won't do the end user any good if they can't install the OS. Claiming they should understand how it works doesn't help when you are up to your neck in alligators - back to my RTFM comment.

      We are geeks - there are normal people out there

    • There's the assumption that the user never switches to a local account in this bullet. I switch back and forth and I always get asked for the code. The code I got before no longer works and I have to get a new code via eMail. Again, this is most likely due to the way I operate my machine.

      Do you know where the authentication is stored (cookie, registry, file)? If it is associated with either a cookie (I clean them up) or a registry entry (which current user - the local or the MSA - because that matters, they have different profile IDs (-1002, -1007)


    To summarize my position:
    MS should not differentiate between a Windows login id and a MSA.
    The creation of the MSA should be offered the first time a user launches a Modern App that requires a MSA or the user sets up sync.
    The Windows login ID is tied to the MSA, but hidden under the covers to access the Available services

    This isn't a far fetched idea. I never see my Google account unless I go to Google mail or the store on my tablet. I doubt that Windows Phone see their MSA very often, someone with a WP will have to provide a real answer - I can only guess (another device I do not have).

    My entire argument (classical definition) is based on the implementation of a MSA on Windows Desktop. The end user experience should not be weighted by a MSA. The services a fine, the apps need to mature, but do not disrupt the user experience. The Start menu / Start Screen fiasco was enough (disclaimer: I was ok with the Start Screen )

    MS has to nail Win10 and so far the geeks are liking what they see.
    The acid test comes later - how real people (not that you are not a real person) manage the installation process. Some bad press will set off another manufactured firestorm.

    Win10 is a real test for MS. I think two releases of Windows that under perform in the market place might put a strain on them, even with those deep pockets. They are well aware of how critical Win10 is to the health of the company. The XP users are or will shortly upgrade to ??? - Win7 probably. Win7 is rock solid and it will be a tough sell to get customers to upgrade in such a short cycle.

    I read some articles about the management team over at MS - the CEO is all cloud, mobile, app ... while the COO is all how are we going to monetize this. Not quite a mutiny but definitely a concerned team.

    The company has a lot of catching up to do and while they do that, other companies are taking advantage of the latest trends and technologies (smart TVs are nothing new, wearable computers are hitting the market, NRF is being built into everything ...). I have no doubt that MS will weather this passage, it is only a matter of degree how well they come out in the end.

    Bill
    .
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  5. Posts : 3,506
    Win_8.1-Pro, Win_10.1607-Pro, Mint_17.3
       07 Jan 2015 #55

    I sincerely hope my post# 54 is taken as it was written.

    If anyone takes it out of context and is offended, I apologize before Survivor teams start forming

    It's all good discussion and it's all opinion ... well except of the facts

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVla...utu.be&t=1m06s
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  6. Posts : 11,231
    Windows 10 Pro
       07 Jan 2015 #56

    The only thing I disagree with you is that there really are (in my opinion and in practical sense) very clearly two types of MS Accounts, with two very distinctive differences:
    1. Setting up a Microsoft hosted email address (which equals with MS Account) does require an additional email address (this may but don't have to be another Microsoft hosted email) or a phone number. An MS Account set up using a third party email address does not require additional contact information.

      Therefore: by default (no additional security set up) a security code for an MS Account using Microsoft hosted email service will be sent to the additional email address or phone instead of the MS Account email itself, whereas the security code for an MS Account using a third party email service will be sent to said third party email / MS Account itself.
    2. Using the Outlook.com / Live.com / Hotmail.com / MSN.com web interface, only the MS Account using Microsoft hosted email can send, check and receive email messages. A third party MS Account can only send but not check or receive.


    In my opinion it is important to understand these minor but still important differences.

    Kari
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  7. Posts : 3,506
    Win_8.1-Pro, Win_10.1607-Pro, Mint_17.3
       07 Jan 2015 #57

    Kari said: View Post
    The only thing I disagree with you is that there really are (in my opinion and in practical sense) very clearly two types of MS Accounts, with two very distinctive differences:
    1. Setting up a Microsoft hosted email address (which equals with MS Account) does require an additional email address (this may but don't have to be another Microsoft hosted email) or a phone number. An MS Account set up using a third party email address does not require additional contact information.

      Therefore: by default (no additional security set up) a security code for an MS Account using Microsoft hosted email service will be sent to the additional email address or phone instead of the MS Account email itself, whereas the security code for an MS Account using a third party email service will be sent to said third party email / MS Account itself.
    2. Using the Outlook.com / Live.com / Hotmail.com / MSN.com web interface, only the MS Account using Microsoft hosted email can send, check and receive email messages. A third party MS Account can only send but not check or receive.


    In my opinion it is important to understand these minor but still important differences.

    Kari
    I am not sure we disagree. I have to read it a few times to make sure I follow, but it sounds as though we are saying the same things from different perspectives again.
    1. complete argument on this
    2. this is giving me trouble, let me set up a third non-MS eMail account in my Outlook.com account
    I have a Yahoo account already added. Things might have changed, so I will go through the complete process.

    I owe you a stein of your favorite beverage if I cannot receive mail, hope it's not too expensive.
    A stein of 25 yo Single malt will set me back.

    My post was so long I forgot to say thank you, not only for your contribution to the debate but because your post employs some interesting BBcode I did know about.
    - time to read the BBcode page here on TF.

    Thank you

    Bill
    .
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  8. Posts : 11,231
    Windows 10 Pro
       07 Jan 2015 #58

    Slartybart said: View Post
    2 this is giving me trouble, let me set up a third non-MS eMail account in my Outlook.com account
    I have a Yahoo account already added. Things might have changed, so I will go through the complete process.

    I owe you a stein of your favorite beverage if I cannot receive mail, hope it's not too expensive.
    A stein of 25 yo Single malt will set me back.
    @Slartybart, please keep in your mind that it is two different things to add a third party email address as an email alias in an existing MS Account, and to create a totally new MS Account using a third party email service.

    I can guarantee it you cannot check nor can you receive emails with web UI for outlook.com with an MS Account using a third party email. The below screenshot from the inbox of MS Account I set up months ago using my Office 365 for Business email, just to be able to use that address as Windows 8.1 / Windows 10 sign in address:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    The inbox only has and has always had just one message, the automatically generated standard welcome message. This account can send emails but for everything else, to check and read emails, I need to use the Office 365's OWA (Outlook Web Access) which ATM shows 17 unread and hundreds of older messages, or an email client. An MS Account set up using a third party email service, even Microsoft's own Office 365 email, is not capable, can absolutely not receive emails.

    You can setup your existing Microsoft hosted email account to pick up mail from third party services but that again is a totally different story.

    Kari
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  9.    08 Jan 2015 #59

    Perhaps it's clearer to say that there are multiple methods in which you can acquire a Microsoft Account. However, in the end, a Microsoft account is a Microsoft account.

    When you register for a service like Hotmail or Outlook, you are required to enter additional email addresses as part of the registration for Hotmail and Outlook, not for the MSA. When you successfully complete the registration, you get two accounts, an Outlook/Hotmail account and an MSA account. These are linked (you can de-link them after the fact).

    Internally, MSA does not use your Email to identify your account, I believe it uses a GUID, which is a 128bit numeric identifier that is "globally unique". Your email address is linked to your MSA as your "login id" and is used to identify you for the general purpose. However, you can change that email address and link it to a different one. after the fact as well, but keeping the same MSA account.

    Anyways, as I was saying, you can create an MSA in one of several ways 1. via Hotmail/Outlook, etc.. 2. Create a stand-alone MSA with your own email address via the Microsoft Account homepage http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/account/default.aspx 3. via the Windows "Create an account" step when installing Windows, or adding an account. Or many other methods as well. Each of these have different steps as part of the creation process.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  10.    08 Jan 2015 #60

    Lady Fitzgerald said: View Post
    I refuse to have an M$ account because I do not give out any of phone numbers except to aa very select few (especially my cell phone) because of the way they hav been abused in the past and because M$ insists that I have ALL cookies enabled on my machines (which is so NOT going to happen; they are my machines and I will determine what goes on them!).
    Lady, No offense, but you are making a fuss over a huge misunderstanding. You do not have to give out your phone numbers to have a Microsoft account. You do not have to enable cookies either, though it can be a bit annoying if you do not because you will have to log in each time you revisit the site. The cookie is what tells the site who you are so that you don't have to keep logging in. If you disable secondary authentication as Kari has several times posted, then there is no need for phone numbers or anything else. You can use a throw-away email address if you like for the login.

    I doubt my comments here will dissuade you, as I find that most people with these opinions tend to have the opinion first, and then look for reasons to support it (usually based on misinformation as was the case here) rather than the other way around, but if these are really your reasons then you can rest assured that you can turn off all the things you take issue with.

    EDIT: After re-reading this, it sounds like i'm saying you're one of those people.. i'm not saying that at all, more just making a general observation about people in general... but no offense intended..
      My ComputerSystem Spec


 
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