Windows 10: Advice for a Windows 10 clean install

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  1. Posts : 9
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter
       03 Aug 2015 #11

    Hi Night Hawk,

    Yes you are correct that a larger SSD would be handy, but I have decided not to upgrade it yet, because I will probably upgrade the whole system within a year and sure a larger SSD would be included.

    Is your suggestion that I format the SSD and use the whole space for Windows 10? I did on my first clean install and that is where I ended up running into problems (of course that was done before reading the tutorial) in that it would not let me install and I had to go back to the HP Windows 7 recover DVDs.

    I have no idea if I can just blow away the HP_Tools or if it is needed by my machine. I have pretty much given up on HP after they did not even create Windows 8 drivers for a laptop which I bought just before Windows 8 started shipping on new machines.

    I am also not clear on what type of Volumes would be advisable to create, Primary or Simple and if I can change my HDD from Dynamic.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  2. Posts : 3,357
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc
       03 Aug 2015 #12

    The OS would always be a primary type! In most cases a second backup/storage type is also a primaty by default when seeing it created. As for saving the 100mb Fat volume you actually don't anything to worry about since 100mb is actually tiny in comparison to 100+gb! The need for the recovery partition on the recovery partition even won't see any need since that has become a second drive on the laptop there and takes up space that could be turned a larger storage/backup partition for system image backups. When using the backup included in Windows can be larger then those made by a 3rd ware like Acronis True Image for example where the second partition would be made up rather then one large partition to cover storage and backup fi and when you saw a second OS like 7 go onto the larger 1tb drive. 200-300 for 7 should be plenty where the remaining drive space is then allocated for backing things up.

    A Windows made image can run upto 300gb depending on how much is on the OS drive itself. With a much smaller 128gb ssd however you might see two or three image backups to come close to that as well as whatever files you stash away there. The external drives you have however do provide a much more long term plan for storage and backup purposes while having a system image or two on the larger drive allows you to simply boot with a live disk or flash drive even to restore the image.

    Speaking of system images I forgot to mention I had made up two for an HP laptop I bought as a gift for someone running the Home edition one relabeled to "WindowsBackup_Factory" when that was first bought before really anyone putting anything on it and later one once everything was set to go for the person who got the 2012 birthday gift! The first image came in at 30gb even almost while the second was 36.6gb approx. showing how you could end up having multiple image backups and would make a second primary not extended on the second drive if planning to see 7 or 8 put there.
    Last edited by Night Hawk; 03 Aug 2015 at 10:14. Reason: Additional comment
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  3. Posts : 67
    Windows 7 SP1, Home Premium, 64-bit
       03 Aug 2015 #13

    I haven't closely examined this thread, but:

    Dynamic partitions are almost always a bad idea. They are totally unnecessary on a typical home PC. They have some value in a corporate environment.

    Disks initialized as MBR are limited to 4 primary partitions.

    Disks initialized as GPT are NOT limited to 4 partitions.

    Windows 10 supports GPT and you can change from MBR to GPT, but I think that would require you to delete all partitions from the drive and start from a bare disk.

    If I were you, I'd get rid of the dynamic partitions. You'd have to back up whatever is on those partitions. There are certain applications that say they can convert dynamic to basic with no risk to your data, but I wouldn't trust that my data wouldn't be at risk.

    I would not put only SOME of my data files on an SSD. I'd put all of them on it or none of them on it. I see you are thinking about the faster access speed advantage of the SSD and so want to put some data files on the SSD in a separate partition.

    I wouldn't do that. The faster access speed advantage would be outweighed by the disadvantages. Having data files on 2 distinct disks will complicate your backup strategy. And disk space on SSDs is too valuable---they are relatively small compared to HDDs and you will end up wasting some space due to the fact that you've broken an already small disk up into even smaller partitions. I'd try to have a minimum number of partitions on the SSD and use all possible space for Windows and as many applications as will fit, leaving some room for growth. Put all data on some other disk--presumably HDD.

    In 3 years, maybe SSDs are so large and so cheap that it might be sensible to partition them. We're not there yet. If you absolutely insist on some data files on an SSD, I'd get another SSD for data alone, although personally I'd think that a waste of money in the typical situation. Maybe you've got a highly unusual situation, I dunno.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  4. Posts : 3,357
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc
       03 Aug 2015 #14

    To further illustrate the point about running with primary partitions for singular or dual purposes such as having a second data/recovery partition on the larger drive of course you will see how backup as well as OS drives generally see the primary type unless laying out server drives such as in Home Server type setups. Whenever going to create a new partition while in the Disk Management tool in Windows by default you see a new primary or extended type created when you select either. When laying out two drives that would see an OS on each as far as two different version of Windows for a dual or multi-boot like 10/7


    The extended partitions are typically when the maximum partition size of the OS has been reached like with 7 figure right up near and not over 2ttb. I'm still trying to find out if 10 has come along since then when considering the now seen large capacity drives when possibly considering a 2.5tb or larger model here. W7 would need to see a drive like that split up while 10???

    Click image for larger version. 

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    As I mentioned earlier two drives had to be removed from the desktop and the W10 drive had been wiped clean first by a clone of the previous 7 host drive followed by the two repeat clean installs of 7 for the 10 upgrade. Once all files and folders are backed up onto the 3rd temp storage drive the other two will be wiped clean to see brand new primaty type single partitions go on. I suspect one may have to trashed entirely later however if still found to be seeing errors showing the drive has lived it's day!
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  5. Posts : 67
    Windows 7 SP1, Home Premium, 64-bit
       03 Aug 2015 #15

    Night Hawk said: View Post

    I'm still trying to find out if 10 has come along since then when considering the now seen large capacity drives when possibly considering a 2.5tb or larger model here. W7 would need to see a drive like that split up while 10???
    The 2 TB limitation can be avoided by initializing the disc as GPT rather than MBR.

    Windows cannot see any portion of an MBR disk above roughly 2.2 TB, regardless of your partitioning scheme or partition types.

    Some motherboard manufacturers (Gigabyte for one) have supplied a software download that tricks Windows into thinking that the space above 2.2 TB on a given MBR disc is in fact a separate disc---when it isn't in reality.

    I've never played with these tricks and have no idea how well it works, but you don't need that if you simply initialize as GPT--in which case you can make a single partition on a 3 or 4 TB disc and all of it is recognized.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  6. Posts : 164
    Win 10 pro Upgraded from 8.1
       03 Aug 2015 #16

    batlhilz said: View Post
    hate the fact, that theres no way to do clean install on a computer - you need to upgrade first old windows before you can do clean install. HATE IT! had ubuntu only on my 4th computer and now i installed windows 10 there. great. :E
    No point in hating it. if you don't want to upgrade is simple just go buy a copy of windows 10 and run your dual boot as normal. of course If you want the free upgrade you'll have to upgrade.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  7. Posts : 3,357
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc
       03 Aug 2015 #17

    batlhilz said: View Post
    hate the fact, that theres no way to do clean install on a computer - you need to upgrade first old windows before you can do clean install. HATE IT! had ubuntu only on my 4th computer and now i installed windows 10 there. great. :E
    SA LA VE' MS eeeeeekkk!!! MS is obviously trying out a new marketing strategy as well as improving on their two platform OS designs with 10. Rather then providing product keys for an otherwise free deal they are using the existing keys from activation of the previous versions in order to verify you are running a genuine Windows before simply handing the reins for 10 over to you! Makes good business sense since the upgrades are not simply intended for custom builds only but mobile devices as well as other OEM desktops, all in ones, laptops, tablets, etc.

    Here it only will be a matter of time before seeing the clean install go as I first try out each program as well as backup which drivers for previous versions will still work on 10. One is a mother board Lan driver for 8.1 that will be tried out next while 10 already downloaded updates for video with the blink of an eye from AMD. So far once 10 was on the second time when the upgrade had to be repeated in order to correct some issues the upgrade has been running smoothly despite some issues with storage drives it seems!

    ignatzatsonic said: View Post
    The 2 TB limitation can be avoided by initializing the disc as GPT rather than MBR.

    Windows cannot see any portion of an MBR disk above roughly 2.2 TB, regardless of your partitioning scheme or partition types.

    Some motherboard manufacturers (Gigabyte for one) have supplied a software download that tricks Windows into thinking that the space above 2.2 TB on a given MBR disc is in fact a separate disc---when it isn't in reality.

    I've never played with these tricks and have no idea how well it works, but you don't need that if you simply initialize as GPT--in which case you can make a single partition on a 3 or 4 TB disc and all of it is recognized.
    Thanks for the info! I have a Gigabyte board on the build here and all seems to going well as far as the board is concerned with either the 10 installer's generic drivers or through the updates seen during the upgrade. The main concern however was already knowing one of the two Sata 3 storage drives has been acting up by being hard to access as well as finding one of the sata power plugs would simply slip off when putting another drive in! Presently the drive that had been in the external usb enclosure didn't work when first installed when the bad plug was noticed and the problem with the S3 drive remains while not as bad now that it is in the enclosure!

    Presently still backing up the last few folders from that before it gets tossed! The idea for a 2tb or larger drive has been on the mind since that 1tb drive was used to back up the first of the two by repeat storage when also seeing system image backups not able to fit on the first drive. Need a larger drive even if it has to see two or three partitions. Maybe one of these days MS will get past the 2tb and onto the 2000tb barrier instead?
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  8. Posts : 9
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter
       04 Aug 2015 #18

    Thank you Night Hawk and ignatzatsonic,

    I was able to do a real clean install and followed your advice about minimizing partitions on the SSD. I could not install the OS on the SDD with the HDD in place. I think it is because the HDD was configure Dynamic. Removing the HDD allowed to perform the install, but I did not end up with the four partitions as stated in the tutorial. I have only two:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Further, I am not sure how to reformat the HDD to give it maximum utility while still being removable if I ever must use the DVD drive. Though I must say that I do not find myself having need of a DVD. I do have the HDD backed up on my NAS, so I can start from scratch on that as well. Just not sure how.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  9. Posts : 3,357
    W10 Pro x64/W7 Ultimate x64 dual boot main - W10 Pro Insider Preview/W7 Pro x64 - remote pc
       04 Aug 2015 #19

    The upgrade attempts failed for a few days from early Wednesday to Saturday between first assuming the clone of 7 was at fault. Then the dvd was thought to be a bad burn.

    Following the nuke of the second and everything else mentioned it was those storage drive still being plugged in! It wasn't the Dynamic partitioning there so much as the second drive simply lacking any OS already seeing boot entries and a boot loader for that OS the 10 installer doesn't see and then places the 10 files and MBR info there instead of on the ssd! Surprise! This is why following the guide here closely works out!

    As for four partitions Shawn was referring to maximum number of Primary type partitions you can see on any drive. for going past four you would then need to change the approach from MBR to GPT as mentioned ealier by ignatzatsonic Extended type partitions can be numerous on the other hand while they cannot see any boot loader or boot information added on as a rule. That's as far as the Windows operating system is concerned while servers are more likely to see extended volumes to begin with.

    Now if you are trying to nuke what is on the second drive and have a fresh start Disk Part used at the command prompt as well as the GUI method right there in the Disk Management tool can zap what is on the drive presently to allow you to create a brand new primary as well as deciding on how large the second backup partition will be by first creating the new OS primary to the size you calculate will suffice for 7 or the second OS. You simply can right click on each or drop down the Actions menu and open Tasks to the right to see a new simple volume created where you then right click on that to see the popup screen for choosing the file system either NTFS or Fat 32 and then click the format button.

    In a minute or so you can see two partions created and if you decided to opt out of having a dual boot you can either nuke the second and expand the first, nuke everything to create one single partition for storage and backup, OR and note this elect to see a separate partition where you would store any full system image backups as well as any scheduled partial backups of folder, files, user account, etc. while keeping any growing number of other not so important files on a larger storage partition if you leave the drive split up that is. Here I would simply have one large volume for both images and countless folders to be added as I go along and with the two drives the second saw system images originally until the second OS was left pending for the next to come following 7 at the time.

    Now since you are on a laptop and mentioned having external drive capacities available you first need to decide how you want to go about setting things up to suit your needs the best according to your personal use. If you are not going to see a second OS put on right away but will later you would still create the partitioning scheme as intended but see a temporary purpose assigned for the second OS's primary partition. You wouldn't put anything there but temp files to avoid clutter on the main storage volume until backed up onto external storage or removable media just to have access to additional drive space during the interim between now and the day the second OS goes on so it still has a practical purpose.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  10. Posts : 9
    Windows 10 Pro
    Thread Starter
       04 Aug 2015 #20

    The reason I thought there should be four partitions is because Shawn says in the tutorial:

    The 4 partitions are these below. It is critical that these 4 partitions remain in the exact order as they are
    •Paritition 1 - Recovery
    •Partition 2 - System - The EFI System partition that contains the NTLDR, HAL, Boot.txt, and other files that are needed to boot the system, such as drivers.
    •Partition 3 - MSR - The Microsoft Reserved (MSR) partition that reserves space on each disk drive for subsequent use by operating system software.
    •Partition 4 - Primary - Where Windows is to be installed to.

    Maybe I am not doing an UEFI install as I thought I would be doing ....

    If I am understanding you both, the best bet is to just use the SDD for the OS with minimal partitions and reformat the HDD as a Basic Disk with one to two Primary partitions for files, backups, images, etc.

    Correct?
      My ComputerSystem Spec


 
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