Windows 10: Replacement for my nvidia GT 610 - what would you suggest.

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  1.    5 Days Ago #21

    this will be a long post...

    This is an interesting problem, which I am sure is relevant to many people running older hardware, and not wanting to spend a fortune upgrading just to play new games. Posters have been pulling in 3 different directions: upgrade OS & RAM; upgrade GPU; or install SSD. I am going to expand on these options and hopefully help you decide.

    1st option - upgrade OS and RAM. If your OS was installed on your PC when you got it, you probably have the OEM version of Windows 10, not the full version. The difference is that people who own the full version of windows can install either 32 bit or 64 bit version, and change for free if they want. If you only own the OEM version, you cannot do this and would have to buy Windows 10 in addition to whatever RAM you are going to add.

    You should also know that, in general 32 bit OS's are more efficient with the RAM at at their disposal, because they only write 32 bits at a time. So a boolean value (True or False) would be 31 zeros followed by a 0 or 1 for True or False. On a 64 bit system, that same value would be 63 zeros followed by a 0 or 1 for True or False, because 64 bit OS's write 64 bits at a time to memory, regardless of how small the value to be saved is.

    2nd option - upgrade GPU (but not OS & RAM.) Assuming what Flashorn posted is true about 4GB RAM limit including Video RAM also, then a beefier video card would likely cut into the RAM available for running the software. The more memory the GPU used for graphics performance, the less you would have available to run the software. Hard for me to say for sure whether that would make a big difference or not.

    I have looked at benchmarks that compare your GPU to the GT 1030 posters have recommended, and the 1030 seems much better (like 6 to 8 times better). But I am fairly certain those results are from 64 bit systems, where there was no need to share RAM addresses with the OS.

    3rd option - Install SSD. Unlike the other options, you should be able to just add this in - the other two options are swapping old for new. So you would still have your HDD. SSDs are just better technology than HDDs, and if they were cheaper, no one would even buy HDDs anymore. As long as you have a spare SATA port and a spare power connector, you should think about adding an SSD to this machine at some point. However, to really get the most out of your SSD you will need to transfer your OS to the SSD, so you can boot from it, which might be a bit of work.

    As far as which to choose, personally I think either a new GPU or adding an SSD will get you the best results. I can only offer the following guidance:

    Upgrading your GPU will help if playing games at the lowest possible quality settings, gives you adequate performance - but you want higher quality.

    Using an SSD will help if games are just taking too long to load the game assets from the hard drive into RAM.



    PS - whatever you decide, post again and let us know how it went.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  2.    5 Days Ago #22

    yu gnomi said: View Post
    this will be a long post...

    This is an interesting problem, which I am sure is relevant to many people running older hardware, and not wanting to spend a fortune upgrading just to play new games. Posters have been pulling in 3 different directions: upgrade OS & RAM; upgrade GPU; or install SSD. I am going to expand on these options and hopefully help you decide.

    1st option - upgrade OS and RAM. If your OS was installed on your PC when you got it, you probably have the OEM version of Windows 10, not the full version. The difference is that people who own the full version of windows can install either 32 bit or 64 bit version, and change for free if they want. If you only own the OEM version, you cannot do this and would have to buy Windows 10 in addition to whatever RAM you are going to add.

    You should also know that, in general 32 bit OS's are more efficient with the RAM at at their disposal, because they only write 32 bits at a time. So a boolean value (True or False) would be 31 zeros followed by a 0 or 1 for True or False. On a 64 bit system, that same value would be 63 zeros followed by a 0 or 1 for True or False, because 64 bit OS's write 64 bits at a time to memory, regardless of how small the value to be saved is.

    2nd option - upgrade GPU (but not OS & RAM.) Assuming what Flashorn posted is true about 4GB RAM limit including Video RAM also, then a beefier video card would likely cut into the RAM available for running the software. The more memory the GPU used for graphics performance, the less you would have available to run the software. Hard for me to say for sure whether that would make a big difference or not.

    I have looked at benchmarks that compare your GPU to the GT 1030 posters have recommended, and the 1030 seems much better (like 6 to 8 times better). But I am fairly certain those results are from 64 bit systems, where there was no need to share RAM addresses with the OS.

    3rd option - Install SSD. Unlike the other options, you should be able to just add this in - the other two options are swapping old for new. So you would still have your HDD. SSDs are just better technology than HDDs, and if they were cheaper, no one would even buy HDDs anymore. As long as you have a spare SATA port and a spare power connector, you should think about adding an SSD to this machine at some point. However, to really get the most out of your SSD you will need to transfer your OS to the SSD, so you can boot from it, which might be a bit of work.

    As far as which to choose, personally I think either a new GPU or adding an SSD will get you the best results. I can only offer the following guidance:

    Upgrading your GPU will help if playing games at the lowest possible quality settings, gives you adequate performance - but you want higher quality.

    Using an SSD will help if games are just taking too long to load the game assets from the hard drive into RAM.



    PS - whatever you decide, post again and let us know how it went.
    Don't take my word for it:

    How much RAM does your version of Windows support?

    Memory Limits for Windows and Windows Server Releases (Windows)

    Don't forget, that 4 G of RAM includes everything on the PC that uses RAM at some point in it's operation.
    So, the 32 bit OS [any OS] will be presented with what's left.

    I also only suggested to upgrade the OS , not the RAM.


    Flashorn
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  3. Posts : 1,435
    Windows 10 Pro IP Build 16291.0 (Branch: RS3 Release)
       5 Days Ago #23

    This thread is becoming too technical. Though I DO understand everything that has been posted here and referred to on other sites, I am not sure the OP will understand the technical part as well. No offense intended to the OP.


    Personal experiences when upgrading hardware:

    For normal desktop usage on 32-bit OS:
    Switch from integrated graphics to a cheap dedicated GPU improved video playback performance on high resolution (less stuttering).
    Upgrading RAM from 2GB to 4GB improved performance a bit when I was running AV and other software that seemed to consume HUGE amounts of RAM by default. Switching AV software to something less memory hungry improved performance a lot.
    Swapping the OS system HDD to an SSD improved performance for all operations drastically.
    Upgrading the low end GPU to something a bit more efficient had no performance improvements during video playback nor for desktop usage. Gaming of course was affected drastically for those games that were 3D-types of games.

    For normal desktop usage on 64-bit OS:
    Upgrading 4GB of RAM to 8GB of RAM did nothing to performance. It only affected the amount of stuff I could run at the same time.
    Switching from integrated graphics to dedicated graphics did nothing to video playback nor desktop performance. Games however were somewhat faster.
    Upgrading the GPU to something high end, improved gaming drastically, but had no effect on anything else.
    Switching from OS system HDD to an SSD, yet again improved overall performance drastically for everything.

    So what should the OP do?
    He play no graphics intensive games so a high end GPU is total waste of money.
    If it seems he's running out of RAM and get "Out of RAM" errors every now and then. Then first thing to do would be to switch from 32-bit OS to 64-bit OS and at least double the amount of RAM.
    If performance is still poor, an SSD as system drive would help a lot, so that's next on the list.

    If games start to interest later then maybe a better GPU would be a good investment. But in this case I would rather upgrade the whole system to something with an i5 CPU of generations 6 or 7 which also enables a lot faster RAM and has faster chipsets to operate the whole system. Everything would be a lot snappier, including desktop operations in general. This kind of system would live a very long time, at least 5-10 years into the future if desktop usage nor software don't change drastically.
    Last edited by slicendice; 5 Days Ago at 06:14.
      My ComputersSystem Spec

  4.    5 Days Ago #24

    @ Flashorn - I was not actually disagreeing with you or even doubting you, it had simply never occurred to me that GPU and CPU would share memory addressing before I read your post, and so was a bit cautious. I have come around, and I believe you are right on about that.

    The bigger picture here is that 32 bit computing reached it's limits (at least for desktops) some time ago, and has been superseded by 64 bit computing. New hardware and high-end games are made for 64 bit CPUs with 64 bit OS's. However, millions of people (probably 10's or 100's of millions) still use 32 bit OS's with older CPUs that might be 32 bit or 64 bit processors.

    However, my own experience of running Windows XP (32 bit) and Debian (Wheezy) Linux (64 bit) on the same system in a dual-boot situation, leads me to believe that just changing from 32-bit to 64 bit, with the same hardware, gives no improvements. This is based on comparing performance of some cross-platform softwares I installed on both OS's -e.g. Eclipse IDE, Code::Blocks IDE, GIMP and Opera browser. That is why I don't endorse upgrading the OS to 64 bit windows, unless he can do it cost free.

    In my view, this is a matter of shoe-horning the right hardware into what is essentially an obsolete system (I hope no one's feelings are hurt by me framing the issue this way.) In that light I still think that either adding an SSD or upgrading the GPU is the best way.

    However, I think that, if you stay with 32 bit windows, you should probably only look at GPUs that come with 1GB or less of RAM. A GPU that comes with 2 GB or more will cut into the amount of available RAM you have for general use. AMD made some GPUs (7850, 7770, etc.) that are quite powerful, but only have 1GB RAM. They are a few years old, and you can probably only get them from websites like Amazon or Newegg.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  5.    4 Days Ago #25

    Slicendice said

    "I am not sure the OP will understand the technical part as well. No offense intended to the OP."
    No offence taken - be aware that the technicalities were easily within my knowledge from start to finish.

    Its been an interesting thread, but it really has run it's course now.
    I had totally forgotten about the restrictions that apply to 32 bit o/s - It was only when yu gnomi pointed this out
    that the penny dropped.

    What did surprise me was the initial advice to spend literally hundreds of pounds on gear that would not work on a 32 bit system. I can only assume that others (like me) had forgotten the aspects of the lesser o/s.I also seemed to have great difficulty in putting across the point that I was NOT into gaming.

    My only remaining query (arises from one of the posts) relates to graphics card memory - as far as I am aware this memory is there to assist the ram. The card provides this addition to spare the initial 'drainage' from the starting nominal ram figure.
    Therefore a card with 2Gb memory is better than a card with 1Gb memory.
    Have I been wrong for many years on this issue?

    Just as a point of interest - removing the GT610, and running the onboard graphics (Intel (R) HD) on the motherboard did actually improve matters markedly (an unexpected result admittedly)

    I have discovered that hidden away somewhere in the loft I should have a 2GB MSI GT710 - this I will try and find and install.
    Genuine thanks to all who responded, and be aware that the points that I made are not for point scoring in any way.

    Thanks again
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  6. Posts : 1,435
    Windows 10 Pro IP Build 16291.0 (Branch: RS3 Release)
       4 Days Ago #26

    Skofab said: View Post
    Slicendice said

    "I am not sure the OP will understand the technical part as well. No offense intended to the OP."
    No offence taken - be aware that the technicalities were easily within my knowledge from start to finish.

    Its been an interesting thread, but it really has run it's course now.
    I had totally forgotten about the restrictions that apply to 32 bit o/s - It was only when yu gnomi pointed this out
    that the penny dropped.

    What did surprise me was the initial advice to spend literally hundreds of pounds on gear that would not work on a 32 bit system. I can only assume that others (like me) had forgotten the aspects of the lesser o/s.I also seemed to have great difficulty in putting across the point that I was NOT into gaming.

    My only remaining query (arises from one of the posts) relates to graphics card memory - as far as I am aware this memory is there to assist the ram. The card provides this addition to spare the initial 'drainage' from the starting nominal ram figure.
    Therefore a card with 2Gb memory is better than a card with 1Gb memory.
    Have I been wrong for many years on this issue?

    Just as a point of interest - removing the GT610, and running the onboard graphics (Intel (R) HD) on the motherboard did actually improve matters markedly (an unexpected result admittedly)

    I have discovered that hidden away somewhere in the loft I should have a 2GB MSI GT710 - this I will try and find and install.
    Genuine thanks to all who responded, and be aware that the points that I made are not for point scoring in any way.

    Thanks again


    Yes, test that GT710 and see what happens.

    You are absolutely correct. The GPU RAM is there to keep all graphics related assets on the GPU for 2 main reasons:
    1. To speed up GPU to MEM and MEM to GPU copy operations.
    2. To conserve RAM so the CPU has more to work with for other operations.


    If a specific dedicated GPU consumes a lot of RAM, it is just because the drivers for it are HUGE, especially if the user enables all features that aren't even related to pure 3D graphics processing.

    I will still repeat this because I think it is very important regarding any operations on a PC, not only gaming like many think...

    !!!Upgrade your boot/system drive to an SSD!!! A 120-256GB is more than you will ever need on a 32-bit system and you can keep the old drive for, backups, dedicated user data storage and even applications.

    Your computer will fly after the upgrade.
      My ComputersSystem Spec


  7. Posts : 1
    Windows 10 (Fall Creators Update, 1709)
       4 Days Ago #27

    I would either go with the GeForce GTX 1050 Ti or the 1060 as a midrange GPU upgrade. That way you get the awesome Pascal architecture and all the improvements that come along with all architectures since Fermi.

    And of course if you want to upgrade to high-end later on, the 1070, 1080 or 1080 Ti are great GPUs.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  8.    4 Days Ago #28

    Skofab said: View Post

    My only remaining query (arises from one of the posts) relates to graphics card memory - as far as I am aware this memory is there to assist the ram. The card provides this addition to spare the initial 'drainage' from the starting nominal ram figure.
    Therefore a card with 2Gb memory is better than a card with 1Gb memory.
    Have I been wrong for many years on this issue?
    Explaining this will unavoidably get technical. For a 64 bit OS with 64 bit CPU, the more RAM on a GPU, the better. Situation is different for 32 bit OS because of the limit of number of possible memory addresses.

    A standard write to memory for 32 bit OS is copying the entire contents of a 32 bit register on the CPU, to a memory address found in a separate 32 bit register. A standard read from memory is copying 32 bits worth of data from memory address found in a specific 32 bit register to a separate register found on the CPU.

    The number of possible memory addresses is limited by possible unique values in 32 bit register, which is 2 to the 32nd power (2^32), which is around 4 billion, which translates to 4 GB RAM.

    From https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...its_windows_10
    How graphics cards and other devices affect memory limits

    Devices have to map their memory below 4 GB for compatibility with non-PAE-aware Windows releases. Therefore, if the system has 4GB of RAM, some of it is either disabled or is remapped above 4GB by the BIOS. If the memory is remapped, X64 Windows can use this memory. X86 client versions of Windows donít support physical memory above the 4GB mark, so they canít access these remapped regions. Any X64 Windows or X86 Server release can.
    X86 client versions with PAE enabled do have a usable 37-bit (128 GB) physical address space. The limit that these versions impose is the highest permitted physical RAM address, not the size of the IO space. That means PAE-aware drivers can actually use physical space above 4 GB if they want. For example, drivers could map the "lost" memory regions located above 4 GB and expose this memory as a RAM disk.
    Windows 10 does not support PAE (from https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx)

    So, because of the 4 billion limit on number of possible memory addresses, the more RAM your GPU has, the more addresses your BIOS will re-map to the GPU, the less of your installed RAM will be available to your OS.

    64 bit OS would not have this issue.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  9. Posts : 1,435
    Windows 10 Pro IP Build 16291.0 (Branch: RS3 Release)
       4 Days Ago #29

    yu gnomi said: View Post
    Explaining this will unavoidably get technical. For a 64 bit OS with 64 bit CPU, the more RAM on a GPU, the better. Situation is different for 32 bit OS because of the limit of number of possible memory addresses.

    A standard write to memory for 32 bit OS is copying the entire contents of a 32 bit register on the CPU, to a memory address found in a separate 32 bit register. A standard read from memory is copying 32 bits worth of data from memory address found in a specific 32 bit register to a separate register found on the CPU.

    The number of possible memory addresses is limited by possible unique values in 32 bit register, which is 2 to the 32nd power (2^32), which is around 4 billion, which translates to 4 GB RAM.

    From https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...its_windows_10
    Windows 10 does not support PAE (from https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/lib...(v=vs.85).aspx)

    So, because of the 4 billion limit on number of possible memory addresses, the more RAM your GPU has, the more addresses your BIOS will re-map to the GPU, the less of your installed RAM will be available to your OS.

    64 bit OS would not have this issue.
    No, you can even run a GPU with 12GB of GRAM on a 32-bit Windows, all usable by the GPU, as long as the card has a 32-bit driver. The GPU has it's own address space. Windows however reserves about 300MB of system RAM for data buffering of textures and other assets into the GPUs GRAM. The OS nor the CPU can not access GRAM directly, so they don't need to address anything. The OS uses however a 36-bit virtual address space, or we would also be limited by 4GB HDDs.
      My ComputersSystem Spec

  10.    1 Day Ago #30

    Hi everyone.here I am again. Found the GT710 card - but have hit upon a big snag


    Have been playing around with the graphics on my PC (Win 10 32 bit) Gigabyte

    For yonks I have used a GT610 with no problems whatsoever. I decided to see how the boards integrated graphics would compare, and ran this (OK) for a couple of days.
    I then found a new (ish) GT710 2Gb card. I was able to install the latest drivers no problem.

    At the moment I have a tremendous delay when booting up (takes about a minute). Whilst booting up it beeps once every 20 seconds or so - this happens for three occasions - after this all is well, it boots up and everything is as it should be.

    My BIG problem is that with the card fitted - pressing delete does not gain entry into the bios. I suspect (?) that the setting is at other than PEG (hence the delay.)

    If I remove the card and leave the PCIe slot empty - the computer will boot without delay, and I can enter bios as normal.
    The only other thing that I thought of is the need for a possible bios update?

    Have I missed something here, is there a workaround OR have I got a duff card.
    Your thoughts and suggestions will be welcomed.

    Thanks in advance
    Last edited by Skofab; 1 Day Ago at 19:02.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


 
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