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  1.    05 Jul 2017 #1
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 125
    Windows 10 x64

    Windows as a service extremely customer unfriendly?


    Hi all!

    Just a thought after wasting days of troubles with Windows 10. And I am talking troubles that are probably not even troubles but just a cause of Windows as a service. The thing is, Windows 10 is extremely eager to phone home after logging in / starting the first time on a new day. Of course there is telemetry, but also it searches for as well Windows updates as well app updates. I never use any app from the store, but of course there are the obligatory apps that must ge update, if you want or not. Sometimes they can't update and generate weird errors. Somehow, the app update process is connected to Windows update, if an app update fails it says that a Windows update failed. That looks troublesome, unless you dig in the log files and find out the real cause. You can't expect that from a normal end user. It's just too complex.

    The last couple of days I restored about 20 times a - luckily relatively small - image on my work laptop. Just because I was desperately trying to find the reason of a repeating 'severe update error'. After 3 days the error just dissappeared. That's when I found finally out what was really going on. Probably some overloaded or crashed Microsoft server far away. That shouldn't have ANY influence on the starting of MY computer, in my humble opinion. But obviousely Microsoft thinks different.

    The thing is, I see many posts from people with problems afer obligatory updates etc. I switched to business branch, but even then you can't really avoid updates (delaying is an option, but that's also temporary). I think Windows as a service is a total fail. Everytime my computer runs ok, a new briliant forced update from Microsoft ruins something new. Maybe we should all start complaining loudly to the source of all troubles. Wish the old days of Windows 7 would return. Just a thought. Wonder what others think about it all.

    And yes: I know tools like Macrium are great. But I can't go on with restoring images because an update messes up things every time again. Maybe I shouldn't look at the Windows logs. Maybe I should just continue until it all collapses. But that's a whole new way of approaching a computer.

    Are we slowly seeing the end of Windows, at least for home (and home working) users? It's way too heavy and pushy for everyday use for most people. Looking at myself, I also use an iPad more and more. In fact, I am typing this on it. Just because I don't want to switch on a laptop, go through the whole boot-phone home-update-etc procedure every time again. I have such a feeling that in about five years Windows is so compex and heavy that it's of no interest for a generation that is used to press a button and start using their device. Whether that is a tablet, phone, smart tv or even a laptop with a non-Windows OS. Or am I just nagging?

    Just a post to discuss and philosophise about!
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  2.    05 Jul 2017 #2
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    A Finnish expat in Germany
    Posts : 12,957
    Windows 10 Pro

    First, I completely disagree with you. Windows Update and Windows Store (UWP) app updates have never caused any issues on any of my W10 machines, physical and virtual.


    Quote Originally Posted by Win10usr View Post
    Of course there is telemetry, but also it searches for as well Windows updates as well app updates. I never use any app from the store, but of course there are the obligatory apps that must ge update, if you want or not. Sometimes they can't update and generate weird errors.
    If you do not need any Windows Store apps, why do you install Windows 10 with them? Simply do a clean install without Windows Store and Windows default apps.

    Quoting myself in another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    OK, I'll start.

    I searched Google and Bing with every possible search criteria I could think of, didn't find this being posted anywhere. Although I am a big fan of UWP apps, I understand those users who prefer traditional desktop apps. This video is for those members.

    Windows 10 Creators Update - Clean Install without Windows Store (UWP) Apps



    The method shown adds two minutes to time needed for a clean install giving you a stripped down Windows 10, or rather a complete Windows 10 without any UWP apps.

    PowerShell command used in video to completely remove all UWP apps including Store during installation:

    Get-AppxProvisionedPackage –Online | Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online

    Alternative for those wanting to keep Store, to be able to reinstall and use UWP apps later on:

    Get-AppxProvisionedPackage –Online | where-object {$_.packagename –notlike “*Store*”} | Remove-AppxProvisionedPackage -Online

    Pro, Education & Enterprise users, this is the policy modified in video:

    Computer Configuration > Administrative Templates > Start Menu and taskbar > Start Layout

      My ComputerSystem Spec
  3.    05 Jul 2017 #3
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 125
    Windows 10 x64
    Thread Starter

    Absolutely true. However, removing some of the standard apps can have weird consequences. Also, when Windows get a big upgrade, you have to repeat the procedure. The thing is: it should be the other way around. Why can't I simply choose to remove those apps? Most people will not be able to do it. You have to think also about the less tech-savvy people. Yeah, I know, I defend my opinion :-)

    also, be honest. Check the large amount of problems people have with Windows 10. Browse through the Tenforums, and you see that many of those problems have to do with updates and upgrades and the consequences of those...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    First, I completely disagree with you. Windows Update and Windows Store (UWP) app updates have never caused any issues on any of my W10 machines, physical and virtual.




    If you do not need any Windows Store apps, why do you install Windows 10 with them? Simply do a clean install without Windows Store and Windows default apps.

    Quoting myself in another thread:
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  4.    06 Jul 2017 #4
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 125
    Windows 10 x64
    Thread Starter

    Hi!

    I just want to show you an example, just happened after starting my computer. In the logs, I see this error (see below, first line on top of the picture shows the error Event ID etc). Great. How should I interpret that as an end user? What I understand is that an application setting can't be written to OfficeHub. I have Office installed, so why is GetOffice (which is OfficeHub, as far as I understood) still there and generating errors? I assume (hope) it doesn't mean anything serious. Don't think so, because once in a couple of months this error appears. But can you understand why I have big question marks spinning above my head sometimes?

    You are an insider. Can you maybe explain to me what I should worry about and what I can safely ignore? If you know, you might really help a lot of people! :-)

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Greetings!


    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    First, I completely disagree with you. Windows Update and Windows Store (UWP) app updates have never caused any issues on any of my W10 machines, physical and virtual.




    If you do not need any Windows Store apps, why do you install Windows 10 with them? Simply do a clean install without Windows Store and Windows default apps.

    Quoting myself in another thread:
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  5.    06 Jul 2017 #5
    Join Date : Mar 2015
    Posts : 124
    Windows 10

    What infuriates me are the unwanted app installs that happen during a new account creation, even active directory, domain connected accounts. Yes, I know about GPOs and the PS commands but the point is that it's not something that should even be bothering an admin. All they did was create yet another thing to manage.

    I have no issues with 10 otherwise.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    06 Jul 2017 #6
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts : 381
    Win10 x64 Pro -2 desktops, 1 laptop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kari View Post
    First, I completely disagree with you. Windows Update and Windows Store (UWP) app updates have never caused any issues on any of my W10 machines, physical and virtual.

    If you do not need any Windows Store apps, why do you install Windows 10 with them? Simply do a clean install without Windows Store and Windows default apps.

    Quoting myself in another thread:
    ... The method shown adds two minutes to time needed for a clean install giving you a stripped down Windows 10, or rather a complete Windows 10 without any UWP apps. ...
    But does nothing to reduce the hours (if not days) to rebuild the system following a clean install. A clean install is not a trivial undertaking if the computer has lots of programs install ... especially if those programs require customization.

    A clean install is a big deal for many people. (I've had to do 5 of them since Win 10 was released. It's not something I will do again unless absolutely required.)
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    06 Jul 2017 #7
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 125
    Windows 10 x64
    Thread Starter

    That is EXACTLY what I an many others worry about. I use my laptop for working from home. It has only the bare necesseties: MS Office, Thunderbird Mail, PaintShop Pro, Lightroom, Firefox, Snagit, Winrar, Kaspersky, Goodsync and Macrium. That's really about it. Even then, this all together is still 50+ GB of installation. Set up perfectly for the work I do. It costs days to arrange that. Exactly that is why I am worried about weird errors etc. But I can't keep restoring images every other day. I also understand that an OS generates errors now and then. But the sad thing of Windows is that many errors are generated by unnessesary parts. Like apps, an app store, Telemetry and so on. Yes, there are ways to remove things via the command line. But why so complicated and risky?

    I even paid (a lot) extra for an upgrade from home to pro. Still all this stuff is there. The internet is full of instructions to block and remove things. Tools that are pretending to do it etc. But I prefer to have a reliable option from a reliable source: Windows itself. Not a tool from mr Chang in Farawayland, from a company no one ever heard of. It's about that.


    Quote Originally Posted by pokeefe0001 View Post
    But does nothing to reduce the hours (if not days) to rebuild the system following a clean install. A clean install is not a trivial undertaking if the computer has lots of programs install ... especially if those programs require customization.

    A clean install is a big deal for many people. (I've had to do 5 of them since Win 10 was released. It's not something I will do again unless absolutely required.)
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  8.    06 Jul 2017 #8
    Join Date : Dec 2013
    Portsmouth Hampshire
    Posts : 1,829
    Windows 10 x86 14383 Insider Pro and Core 10240

    I wonder which version is being complained about here?

    Windows as a Service is not here yet. The Insiders amongst us will verify that the delivery is far from perfected yet.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  9.    06 Jul 2017 #9
    Join Date : Aug 2015
    Posts : 125
    Windows 10 x64
    Thread Starter

    Hi!

    Microsoft itself is communicating Windows 10 as 'Windows as a service'... See for example Overview of Windows as a service (Windows 10) | Microsoft Docs. So that's why I used that description too. But for me you can call it 'forced updates' too, or whatever you like. Especially home users have no way to escape them, the Pro-version gives a little relief. But not that much :-)

    But what do you describe as Windows as a service? Because I have the feeling you use it for something different, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
    I wonder which version is being complained about here?

    Windows as a Service is not here yet. The Insiders amongst us will verify that the delivery is far from perfected yet.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  10.    06 Jul 2017 #10
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Trnava
    Posts : 2,862
    Windows 10.4 Home 1709 x64

    Quote Originally Posted by Win10usr View Post
    The internet is full of instructions to block and remove things. Tools that are pretending to do it etc. But I prefer to have a reliable option from a reliable source: Windows itself. Not a tool from mr Chang in Farawayland, from a company no one ever heard of. It's about that.
    MS made it perfectly clear, users should not disable Windows Updates and that is that, if you do, you do it at own risk. Besides you can tweak Windows from within, without using any 3rd party tools, they are just made to make it easier. Disabling Windows Updates, by simply disabling tasks, removing store apps using a command and etc. With an each upgrade, 10 is getting better and the junk will no longer re-install by itself or change your settings upon upgrade. Then again, upgrade is not an update, it is basically a reinstall, that is the reason, you still need to remove some stuff afterwards.

    Quote Originally Posted by Win10usr View Post
    I just want to show you an example, just happened after starting my computer. In the logs, I see this error (see below, first line on top of the picture shows the error Event ID etc). Great. How should I interpret that as an end user?

    Do you have any problems? Event logs are meant to help to solve problems, if you do not have any, there is no reason to bother with them. I have solved event log errors by disabling event logging.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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