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  1.    08 May 2017 #31
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Posts : 25,184
    64-bit Windows 10 Pro build 17040

      My ComputersSystem Spec
  2.    08 May 2017 #32
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts : 380
    Win10 x64 Pro -2 desktops, 1 laptop

    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    I think there should be a fine for any member who makes the assumption that an issue they are having is a bug and that everyone else has the same "bug". We take the fines and donate them to a charity.
    Ok. As long as there is also a fine for every time any member assumes there is no bug just because not everybody has the problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    Seriously. What else is it going to take before people realize that one issue on their unique system doesn't represent a bug and render Windows 10 crap?
    There is absolutely no way that Microsoft can test, or even visualize, every possible combination of hardware and software in every user's Windows environment. That means there are going to be environments where parts of Windows doesn't work. That's a bug (unless it's a documented restriction). That doesn't mean the Windows 10 is universally crap, but it does mean that Windows may be crap for a user with that configuration.

    I often have freezes following a boot on 2 of my 3 computers with Windows 10 that did not happen with Windows 7. I'm sure it's related to other stuff I run - possibly anti-malware software but maybe something else. I'm not willing to change my configuration just to avoid this problem so I reluctantly cope with it. But I do not enjoy seeing people claim that such problems don't exist just because the majority of users don't have them.
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  3.    08 May 2017 #33
    Join Date : Mar 2015
    Philadelphia
    Posts : 1,174
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    *sighs* No one is saying the issues don't exist. I can't believe we really have to go down this path yet again. A bug means it is a problem with the software that's repeatable. You can test and experience the behavior. I can do the same, and so can the members of this board.

    Common sense and an ounce of computing knowledge tell you that if it is an issue for YOUR system, but not on others, then it isn't a "bug" in the software, but....an issue on your computer. Bugs can be reproduced. That's how software developers identify and fix them. I've had several issues with various versions of Windows 10 so far. But I'm smart enough to know they are isolated to my system. So, rather than spend my time ranting and raving about a non-existent bug, I look for an implement the solutions.

    Yes, we're arguing semantics here, but you seem to take issue with my comments, and then you go on to back my points up. Microsoft can't test for every combination of hardware and software. They aren't Apple, working in a closed system. That's why, using logic, it's irrational to scream that Windows 10 sucks every time there is an issue.
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  4.    08 May 2017 #34
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts : 380
    Win10 x64 Pro -2 desktops, 1 laptop

    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    *sighs* No one is saying the issues don't exist. I can't believe we really have to go down this path yet again. A bug means it is a problem with the software that's repeatable. You can test and experience the behavior. I can do the same, and so can the members of this board.
    We are going down this path again because you seem to have a definition of "bug" I don't recognize. Maybe I'm out of date now, but for years a "bug" was a defect in code. (And before that it was a moth caught in the contacts of a relay in a very early computer.) A bug causes symptoms and those symptoms will be reproducible ... if you can recreate the right conditions. If those conditions are difficult or impossible to reproduce in test environments then the problem may never get reproduced. But the bug - the flaw in the code - still exists.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    Common sense and an ounce of computing knowledge tell you that if it is an issue for YOUR system, but not on others, then it isn't a "bug" in the software, but....an issue on your computer. Bugs can be reproduced. That's how software developers identify and fix them. I've had several issues with various versions of Windows 10 so far. But I'm smart enough to know they are isolated to my system. So, rather than spend my time ranting and raving about a non-existent bug, I look for an implement the solutions.
    A significant part of my career was finding and documenting bugs in some software on mainframe computers. It was very common for bugs to express themselves on a very limited number of computers. Otherwise they would have been detected and fixed by the vendor's development and test teams. That's the way the industry works; we users are all part of a large test team.
    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    Yes, we're arguing semantics here, but you seem to take issue with my comments, and then you go on to back my points up. Microsoft can't test for every combination of hardware and software. They aren't Apple, working in a closed system. That's why, using logic, it's irrational to scream that Windows 10 sucks every time there is an issue.
    Yes, I suppose we are arguing semantics here. But I think I'm arguing for a good purpose. And I'm taking issue with only some of your comments. We shouldn't expect perfection in any software. and it is not rational to say "Windows 10 sucks" every time we run into a problem. But all software is buggy and Windows 10 (from my perspective) appears to be more buggy than Window 7 was. (Or perhaps Windows 10 is more sensitive to buggy drivers, etc.) Whatever, my combination of hardware and software seems to provoke more (hopefully) unintended Windows behavior (like freezing for about 20 minutes) than Windows 7 did. I have never found a way to reproduce some of these problems or to collect useful data when I have reproduced them. I turn to this forum to see what other people have run into and how they've dealt with the problems. I don't find "Windows 10 sucks" helps. I also don't find "It's not a bug; it's your computer" helpful. Of course it's something on my computer. That doesn't mean it's not a bug that someone - maybe even Microsoft - needs to fix.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  5.    08 May 2017 #35
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Newport, South Wales, UK
    Posts : 1,807
    Windows 10 Pro x64 FCU - XP/Vista/Win7/Win8.1 in VM for testing

    If someone has an issue with one of their drivers for their hardware that is not a windows or Microsoft issue as Microsoft does not write drivers.

    (The only exception is for actual Microsoft hardware when Microsoft is responsible for the driver as is any other hardware manufacturer).

    The software development Kit for Drivers is provided to developers who are expected to follow the rules provided to have their hardware certified for and work with Windows. It is not for Microsoft to adapt windows to work with drivers written by others.

    Unfortunately what seems to happen all too often is that a hardware manufacturer cuts corners in the writing of drivers, makes things easier for themselves by not following the guidelines and when Windows evolves to provide support for new hardware, or to fix an unrelated "Bug" in Windows, (they exist and get fixed but can break other code), the old drivers are broken. This sort of sloppy programming by third party driver providers has existed for many years, It's always been common practice with, for example Games developers in addition to Hardware driver developers, take a shortcut, ignore the SDK and you get a slightly better render of a screen, until the windows code is modified for some reason, and the shortcut leads nowhere so fails, (following the SDK is presumed and catered for in the modification so works correctly).

    The simple thing of not using standard system variables but hard coding addresses can fail if circumstances require a change of actual locations - following the rules works

    The problem with windows is that it is not only written within Microsoft, but also, in part, in hundreds or thousands of non Microsoft development labs who are not subject to Microsoft control.
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  6.    08 May 2017 #36
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    There are different kinds of "bugs". It's quite true that Windows is a bit of a Happy Path Princess, meaning that it requires everything to be "just right" for it to function correctly, and any variation can cause issues. They are bugs in dealing with every possible combination of circumstances that can occur that are outside of the "Happy Path" (ie a correct configuration).

    There are also bugs in the robustness of the upgrade process. It seems virtually any unexpected configuration can cause the upgrade to improperly configure itself. Again, these are bugs of the "happy path" variety. In my experience, a large percentage of the people experiencing problems are people who have customized their system in some manner that works fine in their existing system, but would fail because Windows 10 doesn't expect things to be that way. In particular, incorrect permissions can be a huge cause of issues in Windows 10.

    You can argue that these are bugs, and should be fixed, but the fact is, Microsoft has given up trying to test every possible combination. one of the reasons for the new mandatory upgrades is so that they have a lot less testing to do when they issue fixes. This is because supporting an OS the way they used to do has become financially infeasible, especially considering the dwindling number of Desktop PC's being sold, and the fact they've moved to an essentially free distribution model (OEM's still pay, but it's still a huge financial hit).

    OS's are becoming disposable. Just toss the old one and reinstall a new one if something goes wrong.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    09 May 2017 #37
    Join Date : Mar 2015
    Philadelphia
    Posts : 1,174
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    Quote Originally Posted by pokeefe0001 View Post
    I also don't find "It's not a bug; it's your computer" helpful.
    Then you are missing the entire purpose of this forum. A bug is something the developer must fix. Meaning, the user is SOL until there is a patch or a workaround.

    An issue with the individual computer means it is something we can likely help to resolve. It's crucial to understand the difference, and if you are honest about your experience, you would absolutely know that.

    This forum is about trying to help those who are asking for it, not a vent or rant forum on how "Windows 10 is so bad". That's the point you are missing, and the one I can't believe needs to be repeated over and over here. If a user finds a bug, then the proper thing to do is report it. When users have issues, the proper thing to do is try to help them out. Very VERY rarely are the issues found on here actual bugs. We can't fix bugs, unless someone on here is a Microsoft employee involved with Windows 10 development.

    We do what we can here, and that is to resolve issues, not bugs.
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  8.    09 May 2017 #38
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Pacific Northwest, USA
    Posts : 380
    Win10 x64 Pro -2 desktops, 1 laptop

    Quote Originally Posted by DeaconFrost View Post
    Then you are missing the entire purpose of this forum. A bug is something the developer must fix. Meaning, the user is SOL until there is a patch or a workaround.
    ...
    We do what we can here, and that is to resolve issues, not bugs.
    I don't think we're that far apart here. Some of the things I use (or try to use) the forum for are
    • trying to determine if a issue is a bug or something like a configuration problem
    • seeing how others have circumvented the issue (if anybody has seen it)
    • finding out how to collect additional documentation for further diagnosis
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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