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  1.    11 Jul 2015 #21
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    It's language I deal with often and regularly, and also regarding law to the extend that I know commercial law is not whatever a company decides they want it to be at their arbitrary discretion. An EULA is not law, but an EULA is subject to the law. Also, a software license is a personal property. EULAs can change arbitrarily, but a license purchase is a matter of legal and binding contract, and that cannot change by one side's unilateral action.


    "You are posting all of this legal stuff as to what MS can do and can't do."

    Would you feel the same if someone told you any other item you bought was yours to choose what to do with? Would you respond as if you expected you had no rights to your property and that someone would have to prove to you that the businesses you bought stuff from weren't your overlords?
    That in bold is exactly what credit card companies do. In fact, you don't even own the credit card (see your terms). You don't own the software.
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  2.    11 Jul 2015 #22
    Join Date : Dec 2013
    Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts : 10,612
    Windows 10 IoT

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicieuxz View Post
    The upgrade is free - the eligibility for the upgrade, and what it is that is upgraded, was not free. What is upgraded is an existing Windows license. It is for Microsoft to decide that they want to provide a free upgrade (which is to get people using the MS store and make things easier for MS), but it isn't for Microsoft to choose whether the existing licenses that are receiving the upgrade lose any of their authorizing definition.

    For Microsoft to change the usability terms of an existing license, the ownership of the original bought license would first have to revert back to Microsoft and become their property again, with a new license and agreement being then delivered from Microsoft. If a license reverts to Microsoft, that would have to happen through an explicitly clear legal agreement - but then there is no upgrade taking place, and rather a barter, an exchange of one license for another. But who would knowingly exchange their forever-lasting Windows 7 / 8 retail license for a very temporary Windows 10 OEM license? Even just changing the advertising for Microsoft's Windows 10 offer at this point could be worthy of a class-action lawsuit, for people who would get confused and hand over their full retail license under unexpected terms.

    Microsoft doesn't hold the legal authority to claim that a person's license is now their property anymore than a car salesman who sell you a car could unilaterally claim that the car they sold you has once again become their property.

    Therefore, OEM licenses should upgrade and still function as OEM licenses (lasting for the lifetime of the device), while retail licenses continue to function as their purchased agreement stipulated (install on one machine, transferable).

    If some people have been using Windows under the impression that their bought licenses are not actually their property, then that's a misunderstanding on their part. But would they make the same mistake regarding a house they buy, or clothing they buy?
    You don't own it you have a license to use subject to terms and conditions.

    This is from the Windows 8.1 EULA, http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windo...e/default.aspx

    How can I use the software? We do not sell our software or your copy of it – we only license it. Under our license, we grant you the right to install and run that one copy on one computer (the licensed computer), for use by one person at a time, but only if you comply with all the terms of this agreement. Typically, this means you can install one copy of the software on a personal computer and then you can use the software on that computer. The software is not licensed to be used as server software or for commercial hosting, so you may not make the software available for simultaneous use by multiple users over a network. For more information on multiple user scenarios and virtualization, see the Additional Terms.
    May

    What about updating the software? If you install the software covered by this agreement as an update to your existing operating system software, the update replaces the original software that you are updating. You do not retain any rights to the original software after you have updated and you may not continue to use it or transfer it in any way. This agreement governs your rights to use the update software and replaces the agreement for the software from which you updated. After you complete your update, some apps may not migrate or may be incompatible with Windows 8.1 Pro and additional software may be required to play back or record certain types of media, including DVDs.
    Can
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  3.    11 Jul 2015 #23
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 167
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary View Post
    Then I would suspect that you are aware of a RTU?
    I'm not, but I am understanding of consumer law rationale, consumer rights, and the identity of a purchased license as a property.
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  4.    11 Jul 2015 #24
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 167
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    That in bold is exactly what credit card companies do. In fact, you don't even own the credit card (see your terms). You don't own the software.
    A person does not purchase their credit card, and the financial credit given from a credit card company is not a gift - therefore that credit is not a person's personal property, that whatever they purchase instantly becomes their own property.

    It is an unrelatable concept.
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  5.    11 Jul 2015 #25
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicieuxz View Post
    I'm not, but I am understanding of consumer law rationale, consumer rights, and the identity of a purchased license as a property.
    That would depend on your state law. All contracts have something, saying something to the effect if any part is not legal the rest of the contract will remain in effect.
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  6.    11 Jul 2015 #26
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 167
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by alphanumeric View Post
    You don't own it you have a license to use subject to terms and conditions.
    The "it" in your statement refers to the software, and that's correct. A person who owns a license does not own the software which their license entitles them to use - but they do own the license, which grants them right to use the software under the conditions granted at the time of purchasing the license.

    In the case of purchasing a retail Windows 7 license, a person would not own Windows 7, but would own a license to use Windows 7, and to have it installed on a single machine at one time, with the license being transferable.
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  7.    11 Jul 2015 #27
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 167
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    That would depend on your state law. All contracts have something, saying something to the effect if any part is not legal the rest of the contract will remain in effect.
    The aspects being discussed here I believe to be ubiquitous across North America and also Europe. The EU has previously ruled that a software license is a personal property, and retains all the rights of a personal property.
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  8.    11 Jul 2015 #28
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 1,555
    W7 32 bit, Linux Mint Xfce 18 64 bit

    Quote Originally Posted by Delicieuxz View Post
    The it in your statement refers to the software, and that's correct. A person who owns a license does not own the software which their license entitles them to use - but they do own the license, which grants them right to use the software under the conditions granted at the time of purchasing the license.
    Once you upgrade to windows 10 you are agreeing to a new contract and the other contract is void. Very simple. I am basing this on U.S. & state laws.
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  9.    11 Jul 2015 #29
    Join Date : Jan 2015
    Posts : 167
    Windows 7 Ultimate 64
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by groze View Post
    Once you upgrade to windows 10 you agreeing to a new contract and the other contract is void. Very simple.
    Very simple to say, but not true. Microsoft cannot void somebody's previous contract unilaterally, there needs to be a very clear agreement - one which would render the upgrade offer from Microsoft as being not an actual upgrade, but an exchange of properties, which would need to be clearly broadcast as such to the person accepting it. Lack of clarity would render the terms of any such ownership exchange void in the eyes of the law.

    When people defend the notion of them having a full lack of ownership and rights regarding their licenses, I wonder this: Why is your interest to claim all natural rights as belonging to Microsoft? Are you working for their legal department? If you are a individual consumer, then there is no benefit to expressing this line of reasoning, just as there is no legal substantiation for it.
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  10.    11 Jul 2015 #30
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    Posts : 79
    Win10

    M$ being M$, they might wait to see how popular will be the OS than decide if we get a retail option or not.

    Wait and don't risk to lose your retail license after a hour of use because you know, the motherboard could die anytime.
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