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  1.    08 Jun 2015 #11
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    beqa lagoon, fiji
    Posts : 265
    Windows 10 preview ########
    Thread Starter

    ahci isn't dead, it is still used in a hugh array of drives. but nvme is definitely where things are going. but you can't hardly find them just yet. there is only two in production right now, and getting them is extremely hard. shortly nvme will be the standard, because it is much faster than ahci. but for right now, i need ahci working at its best.
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  2.    08 Jun 2015 #12
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by STEVAE View Post
    ahci isn't dead, it is still used in a hugh array of drives. but nvme is definitely where things are going. but you can't hardly find them just yet. there is only two in production right now, and getting them is extremely hard. shortly nvme will be the standard, because it is much faster than ahci. but for right now, i need ahci working at its best.
    That's kind of my point... AHCI's "best" is not very good for these devices... AHCI is specifically a poor performer with PCIe devices according to what I've read.

    Can you provide any references other than "search the web" that prove this is a bug in the AHCI driver?
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  3.    08 Jun 2015 #13
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Penns Forrest
    Posts : 3,506
    Win_8.1-Pro, Win_10.1607-Pro, Mint_17.3

    Quote Originally Posted by STEVAE View Post
    what i mean is for advanced drives. i have the pcie sm951 ahci ssd. this is one of the newest and fastest drives in the world right now, and windows ten version of ahci is not optimized to be able to use it to its fullest potential, because they haven't updated the drivers for ahci. of course there are no problems with older ahci drives, but for anything new, they just haven't bothered to get around to it. and that is strange considering that win 10 is not only the newest version of windows, but supposed to be optimized for just these type of situations.
    Thanks for the clarification.

    These are relatively new devices - I agree that Win10 should include driver support for them (Win8.1 already does). The issue isn't Windows though ... it's more motherboards and firmware. Windows can't change those things.

    Thanks again ... I always learn from other members either by the questions they ask or the answers they provide.

    Here are a few things I found:

    NVM Express

    Consumer SSD | Samsung Semiconductor Global Website

    NVMe Integrator's List | InterOperability Laboratory

    AHCI and NVMe as Interfaces for SATA
    Expressô Devices - Overview
    (PDF)

    NVMe solid state drives are coming to a PC near you | Digital Trends
    The speed at which NVMe is moving is impressive. The Intel 750 SSD doesnít even ship until April 24th, yet already two motherboard manufacturers have pledged support through BIOS updates and adapter cards, and consumers will have at least four drives to choose from by summer. Whatíll really make the standardís acceptance grow, however, is the next generation of Intel processor hardware expected later this year. Chipsets for 6th-generation Core processors will no doubt offer native NVMe support, and that will really open the floodgates

    Everything you need to know about NVMe, the insanely fast future for SSDs | PCWorld
    Drivers in place, BIOS and connectorsónot
    One of the best things about NVM Express is that you donít have to worry about drivers showing up. Linux has had NVMe support since kernel 3.1; Windows 8.1 and Server 2012 R2 both include a native driver, and thereís a FreeBSD driver in the works. When Apple decides to support NVMe, the latter should make it easy to port.

    However, BIOS support is largely lacking. Without an NVMe-aware BIOS, you canít boot from an NVMe drive, though anyone with a x4 PCIe slot or M.2 connector can benefit from employing an NVMe drive as secondary storage. An NVMe BIOS is not a difficult technical hurdle, but it does require engineering hours and money, so itís unlikely it will stretch far back into the legacy pool.

    Equally daunting for early adopters is the connection conundrum. Early on, youíll see a lot of expansion card NVMe drives using Gen 3 PCIe slots. That's because all 2.5-inch NVMe SSDs use the new SFF-8639 (Small Form Factor) connector thatís been specially developed for NVMe and SATA Express, but is currently found only on high-end servers. An SFF-8639 connection features four Gen 3 PCIe lanes, two SATA ports, plus sideband channels and both 3.3-volt and 12-volt power.

    There are adapters and cables that allow you to connect 2.5-inch NVMe SSDs to M.2, but as M.2 lacks a 12-volt rail, the adapters draw juice from a standard SATA power connector. The real issue with M.2 is that on Intel systems it's generally implemented behind the PCH (Platform Controller Hub), which features only Gen 2 PCIe. That's because the PCH lies behind the DMI (Direct Media Interface) which is capped at 2GBps. You can see the problem.

    Note that NVMe via M.2 isnít 3.3 times faster than SATA. But if you pay the money, youíre going to want your SSD to be all it can be. At least I would. That means an expansion card drive until SFF-8639 connectors show up on consumer PCs.

    NVMe SSDs actually showed up last summer with Samsungís 1.6TB MZ-WEIT10, which shipped in Dellís $10,000 PowerEdge R920 server. Gulp. Intel followed suit with the announcement of its pricy PS3600 and 3700 series NVMe SSDs, which are available in capacities up to 2TB. The first consumer NVMe drive to show up is Intelís 750. Itís fast. Read our review.

    The Current Outlook
    Enthusiasts will want to take a hard look at Intelís 750. Most recent high-end motherboards will get firmware upgrades to support NVMe so you can boot from the drive. Most legacy mainstream boards will probably not. But our talks with Intel and other vendors indicate that the flood gates have opened, and you should see a torrent of NVMe support later in the year.

    Until then, there are viable ways around your PCís storage bottleneck, if indeed you consider 500MBps a bottleneck. One is RAID 0. While a single SATA port is limited to 600Gbps, combining four makes for 2.4GBps of bandwidth. In real life, the DMI bus behind the SATA throttles this to 2GBps, and SATA/RAID overhead reduces that to about 1.4GBps, but itís still a hefty improvement.

    A second option is a PCIe M.2 SSD such as Plextorís M6e, and Kingstonís HyperX Predator SSD. Most PCIe M.2 drives are also available on inexpensive adapter cards that let you use them in PCIe slots if your motherboard lacks a M.2 connector. Weíve seen 1.4GBps to 1.6GBps from theseóa significant boost and a bit faster than the RAID 0 setups weíve used. Theyíre not cheap, but the introduction of Intelís relatively affordable 750 is bound to push prices down.

    Thatís what you can do for now. But according to nearly every vendor we talked to, you can expect to see NVMe hit the market in scale later this year. Itís just too much of an improvement.
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  4.    08 Jun 2015 #14
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    beqa lagoon, fiji
    Posts : 265
    Windows 10 preview ########
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    That's kind of my point... AHCI's "best" is not very good for these devices... AHCI is specifically a poor performer with PCIe devices according to what I've read.

    Can you provide any references other than "search the web" that prove this is a bug in the AHCI driver?
    well, that isn't technically correct. ahci isn't a poor performer with pcie drives, it just isn't GENERALLY as fast as nvme. keep in mind that nvme is extremely new. it is as new as new can get in this industry. but it normally does out perform ahci. however, in recent tests, the ahci sm951 out performed the intel nvme 750. so nvme isn't across the board faster than ahci, although its upside is much brighter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartybart View Post
    Thanks for the clarification.

    These are relatively new devices - I agree that Win10 should include driver support for them (Win8.1 already does). The issue isn't Windows though ... it's more motherboards and firmware. Windows can't change those things.

    Thanks again ... I always learn from other members either by the questions they ask or the answers they provide.

    Here are a few things I found:

    NVM Express
    Consumer SSD | Samsung Semiconductor Global Website
    NVMe Integrator's List | InterOperability Laboratory
    AHCI and NVMe as Interfaces for SATA
    Expressô Devices - Overview
    (PDF)
    NVMe solid state drives are coming to a PC near you | Digital Trends
    Everything you need to know about NVMe, the insanely fast future for SSDs | PCWorld
    some of this information is old, and written before my current drive even came out. they mention what is coming in april, when we are currently in june. most of the information is good in these articles, but things are moving really quickly in this part of the industry, and so even a few months can make the information dated.
    Last edited by STEVAE; 08 Jun 2015 at 11:51.
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  5.    08 Jun 2015 #15
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    beqa lagoon, fiji
    Posts : 265
    Windows 10 preview ########
    Thread Starter

    HERE IS A QUOTE FROM A VERY RECENT ARTICLE OF A BENCHMARK CONTEST BETWEEN SEVERAL SSD DRIVES FROM TECHSPOT


    "Not only is the SM951 faster but it's also cheaper -- around 10% when comparing the 512GB model to Intel's SSD 750 Series 400GB. Granted, at $0.89 per gig the SM951 isn't an affordable proposition, but it's a better overall value than the performance SATA SSDs. Samsung's SSD 850 Pro 512GB is $270 ($0.52 per gigabyte) and while the SM951 costs ~70% more, it's well over 70% faster.
    The only real issue facing Samsung's SM951 is availability, as it seems the only way to get one is from RamCity (directly or through its Amazon store). Right now the company appears to have plenty of stock and offers a three-year warranty. That being the case, if I were looking to outfit my enthusiast rig with a high-speed PCIe SSD, Samsung's SM951 would be my number one choice.
    90
    TECHSPOT
    SCORE

    Pros: Samsung's SM951 is a better value than performance SATA SSDs when you consider it's twice as fast, not to mention that it's quicker and cheaper than Intel's NVMe-equipped SSD 750 1.2TB.
    Cons: Availability is limited, but if you want one you can buy it. Drive ships with a three-year warranty vs. Intel's five-year coverage. Lack of NVMe might be a bummer but a new model is coming soon."


    the above quotes are from here: Samsung SM951 PCIe SSD 512GB Review > How We Test - TechSpot

    this is just one example of ahci hanging with, and even beating nvme in many bench tests. the point is that ahci is not dead or a poor performer, it is just older tech, and doesn't have the long term abilities that nvme has. right now it isn't prudent to buy nvme, because most computers don't have a bios to boot from them, and who knows how long before they will. and if you can't boot from it... so good things are coming, but i'll stick to my sm951 for the time being. and windows ten should join the game and update their drivers.
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  6.    08 Jun 2015 #16
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    You still have not presented any information indicating a problem with Windows 10, that there is some kind of bug, or what exact problem you are referring to...
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  7.    08 Jun 2015 #17
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    beqa lagoon, fiji
    Posts : 265
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    Thread Starter

    my aim wasn't to PRESENT information about win 10's ahci shortcomings in this, it was to point it out. gabe and the boys at win 10 dev already know that these problems exist, as several "windows 10" specific articles have been pointing them out for a few months now. i was merely bumping the point by making mention of it here again, hoping to light a fire under their tails to get it done. these drives don't need a specific driver to run properly. they need the general ahci system drivers to work properly for them to operate at full performance. the windows ten ahci system drivers are not optimized as they should be for an os getting ready for rtm. my drive performs much slower in win 10 than it does in windows 7 or 8.1 because of the windows 10 ahci problems. and they've known about it for a while now.
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  8.    08 Jun 2015 #18
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    Posts : 28
    Win10 Preview, latest version

    I'm guessing he's referring to the lack of good inbuilt driver support for his hardware in Win 10. Since there are no Windows 10 drivers available yet for most hardware, we rely implicitly on Microsoft to insure compatibility, especially with the latest hardware.

    EDIT: My sound is a good example. It's functional, but I cant even adjust the volume, and the manufacturer doesn't intend to make new drivers. So I will soon replace my PC sound.
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  9.    08 Jun 2015 #19
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Ok, so you come here to complain about a problem you refuse to properly explain, refuse to provide any references to support your claim of a problem, and then argue about how Windows 10 needs to fix this vaguely referenced, unsupported claim.

    Ok... gotcha.
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  10.    08 Jun 2015 #20
    Join Date : Jun 2015
    beqa lagoon, fiji
    Posts : 265
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    Thread Starter

    what is your problem? i explained aptly why i made the post, and you refuse to accept it, and instead try to start a flame war? grow up. this board isn't for that. if you don't like what i posted, don't read it. i went through 40 or 50 different documents while doing my research, and NO, i'm not going through all of it again just to satisfy your curiosity. do your own research.
    MY POST WAS NOT AIMED AT YOU OR FOR YOU. my post was to point out something the win 10 guys have not fixed, in hopes that they would get it done. your approval of the situation isn't part of the equation. so find someone else to argue with, i'm not on here for that purpose.
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