Windows 10: Why do we put up with such bad service

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  1.    08 Sep 2016 #1

    Why do we put up with such bad service


    Hi. Please excuse my 'long in the tooth' approach - I come from an IT service management background - but can someone explain to me please why we put up with software changes (e.g. Win 7 to 10) that create a plethora of complaints, discussions and cries for help on forums like this one. Maybe I am wrong but, it seems to me that every 'upgrade' creates a raft of problems for us users - many of who just want to use our computers to help us run our business and who are frustrated when it comes to having to spend hours, sometimes days, identifying and attempting to resolve a new bug (or is it a 'facility').
    I am quite convinced that if MS were in the business of developing and selling cars, not knowing if the car would behave today as it did yesterday, or if the driver needs to applying a new sequence of actions to get going or stop, would result in customer reaction that would drive MS out of the 'car business' in 3 months. Yet for IT we customers are happy to a) put up with continual problems, and b) to accept that we have to help ourselves to resolve those problems, regardless of the impact on our time and business.
    Yes this is a moan. But I am quite sure that there is nobody out there that disagrees fundamentally with my complaint.
    What to do? Maybe a 'we wont accept such poor service any more' wave of consumer support would help. Just a thought. JohnG
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  2.    08 Sep 2016 #2

    'cos it's almost a monopoly.

    Please feel free to give feedback to MS via the Feedback app.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  3.    08 Sep 2016 #3

    Well software development is nowhere near making cars. The cars industry in the 50's didn't want to put seat belts in their cars because they didn't want to give the impression cars are unsafe. MS has to design their OS based on the technologies of the day. Plus they do it with it running on Dell, HP, Lenovo and all the other brands. Those brands all use different components. Those brands are even manufactured by the brand name on them. They are manufactured by ODM's in China and Asia. MS has to design their OS to run with companies like ATI/AMD, Nvidia, Intel, Realtek, Asus, MSI, Seagate, Samsung and many others. MS licenses their OS to you for less than 200 and cars typically sell for at least 15,000 or up to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    The first thing i heard in computer school was Software is never completed it's only released. That isn't the case in the car industry because safety with your life in involved.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


  4. Posts : 680
    W10 Pro (desktop), W10 (laptop), W10 (laptop), W10Pro (tablet)
       08 Sep 2016 #4

    JohnGroom said: View Post
    Hi. Please excuse my 'long in the tooth' approach - I come from an IT service management background - but can someone explain to me please why we put up with software changes (e.g. Win 7 to 10) that create a plethora of complaints, discussions and cries for help on forums like this one. Maybe I am wrong but, it seems to me that every 'upgrade' creates a raft of problems for us users - many of who just want to use our computers to help us run our business and who are frustrated when it comes to having to spend hours, sometimes days, identifying and attempting to resolve a new bug (or is it a 'facility').
    I am quite convinced that if MS were in the business of developing and selling cars, not knowing if the car would behave today as it did yesterday, or if the driver needs to applying a new sequence of actions to get going or stop, would result in customer reaction that would drive MS out of the 'car business' in 3 months. Yet for IT we customers are happy to a) put up with continual problems, and b) to accept that we have to help ourselves to resolve those problems, regardless of the impact on our time and business.
    Yes this is a moan. But I am quite sure that there is nobody out there that disagrees fundamentally with my complaint.
    What to do? Maybe a 'we wont accept such poor service any more' wave of consumer support would help. Just a thought. JohnG

    Your car industry analogy isn't appropriate as it's comparing apples to orangutans. When the car industry comes out with a new model, they don't attempt to update or upgrade your old model, they simply require you to buy the new model or stay with the old. MS could do the same, make it so only newly purchased computers come with the new OS.

    IMO, it's perfectly fine for MS to offer an OS upgrade and allow people to choose whether to install it or not. If they choose to install it then they also choose to accept the possible consequences of upgrading as it is impossible to ensure that the upgrade will go smoothly as there are too many variables.

    Where MS faltered was when they started pushing the OS upgrade to users who didn't want it.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  5.    08 Sep 2016 #5

    First, the PC industry is only about 35 years old. The Auto industry is over 100 years old. It's had a lot longer to mature, and certainly the cars released in the first 35 years of the auto industry were far more problematic in my opinion. In fact, it wasn't really until the early 90's that cars really started to become more reliable, and manufacturers started to adopt practices that made them able to create new models faster and safer than ever before.

    Apple is more like a car manufacturer, in that it controls every facet of the development of the hardware as well as the firmware and software. Yet it still has plenty of problems (you just don't hear about most of them because their market share is 1/10th that of Windows).

    Microsoft only controls the OS, and it has to run on billions of permutations of hardware out there. They do a pretty good job, but a small percentage of people are going to have problems. But with a market of billions of devices, that means you hear about those problems a lot more. And forums in particular you hear about problems because that's where people go to find fixes.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  6.    10 Sep 2016 #6

    orlbuckeye said: View Post
    Well software development is nowhere near making cars. The cars industry in the 50's didn't want to put seat belts in their cars because they didn't want to give the impression cars are unsafe. MS has to design their OS based on the technologies of the day. Plus they do it with it running on Dell, HP, Lenovo and all the other brands. Those brands all use different components. Those brands are even manufactured by the brand name on them. They are manufactured by ODM's in China and Asia. MS has to design their OS to run with companies like ATI/AMD, Nvidia, Intel, Realtek, Asus, MSI, Seagate, Samsung and many others. MS licenses their OS to you for less than 200 and cars typically sell for at least 15,000 or up to hundreds of thousands of dollars.

    The first thing i heard in computer school was Software is never completed it's only released. That isn't the case in the car industry because safety with your life in involved.
    orlbuckeye, hi - I understand your point about the hardware. On the assumption that software is intended to provide some designed/logical functionality, maybe I should give a specific example of my complaint.
    I recently logged into my MS account, prompted by a suggestion that I look in the MS shop.
    I logged in OK and toured the shop - no problem. It was the end of the day so after that I closed down.
    The following morning I started my PC and discovered that I could not log in to Windows - "wrong password". EH? What? Why?
    On searching via Google, using an iPad, I discovered the reason: Having logged into my MS account, my Windows password had been changed to my MS account password. This raises for me 3 questions:
    Why did this happen - what is the design/logical purpose/intention?
    Why was I not warned/told that this will happen when I logged into the MS account, together with 'what to do' if I don't want my Windows password to be the same as my MS account password? (such information and the provision of such information is called 'user/customer support') and, far more worrying
    I assume that in logging into my MS account I am logging into a service/system held by MS, at a location totally remote from my PC and controlled by MS. But my Windows login is unique to and, I assume, tied to my physical PC. SO HOW CAN MS change my password on my PC a) at all, and b) without me knowing. Of course I may have this wrong and when I log into windows I am actually logging in to a remote server somewhere and my PC is just a dumb terminal. John
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  7.    10 Sep 2016 #7

    JohnGroom said: View Post
    orlbuckeye, hi - I understand your point about the hardware. On the assumption that software is intended to provide some designed/logical functionality, maybe I should give a specific example of my complaint.
    I recently logged into my MS account, prompted by a suggestion that I look in the MS shop.
    I logged in OK and toured the shop - no problem. It was the end of the day so after that I closed down.
    The following morning I started my PC and discovered that I could not log in to Windows - "wrong password". EH? What? Why?
    On searching via Google, using an iPad, I discovered the reason: Having logged into my MS account, my Windows password had been changed to my MS account password. This raises for me 3 questions:
    Why did this happen - what is the design/logical purpose/intention?
    Why was I not warned/told that this will happen when I logged into the MS account, together with 'what to do' if I don't want my Windows password to be the same as my MS account password? (such information and the provision of such information is called 'user/customer support') and, far more worrying
    I assume that in logging into my MS account I am logging into a service/system held by MS, at a location totally remote from my PC and controlled by MS. But my Windows login is unique to and, I assume, tied to my physical PC. SO HOW CAN MS change my password on my PC a) at all, and b) without me knowing. Of course I may have this wrong and when I log into windows I am actually logging in to a remote server somewhere and my PC is just a dumb terminal. John
    You obviously do not know the difference between a local account and an MS account.

    With a local account password is on pc.

    With an MS account password is still on pc but is synced with password on (remote) MS account

    You simply changed from a local account to an MS account by clicking wrong option when you accessed the MS Store. You could have logged in to Store only without changing to an MS account and your local account password would be unaffected.

    You authorised MS to make the change by mistake - MS did not change it unilaterally.

    Simply change account back to local and use your password.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  8.    10 Sep 2016 #8

    JohnGroom said: View Post
    Hi. Please excuse my 'long in the tooth' approach - I come from an IT service management background - but can someone explain to me please why we put up with software changes (e.g. Win 7 to 10) that create a plethora of complaints, discussions and cries for help on forums like this one. Maybe I am wrong but, it seems to me that every 'upgrade' creates a raft of problems for us users - many of who just want to use our computers to help us run our business and who are frustrated when it comes to having to spend hours, sometimes days, identifying and attempting to resolve a new bug (or is it a 'facility').
    I am quite convinced that if MS were in the business of developing and selling cars, not knowing if the car would behave today as it did yesterday, or if the driver needs to applying a new sequence of actions to get going or stop, would result in customer reaction that would drive MS out of the 'car business' in 3 months. Yet for IT we customers are happy to a) put up with continual problems, and b) to accept that we have to help ourselves to resolve those problems, regardless of the impact on our time and business.
    Yes this is a moan. But I am quite sure that there is nobody out there that disagrees fundamentally with my complaint.
    What to do? Maybe a 'we wont accept such poor service any more' wave of consumer support would help. Just a thought. JohnG
    Hi and welcome to the forums.
    Sorry to hear that you find MS's OS's not up to what you would like them to be but heck.. Win10 is well over 50 Million lines of code and I bet as an IT person you understand all to well that making a program(OS) like that perfect is impossible. Well I do at least being in IT myself for over 20 years.

    But I do have a suggestion. Why not try out a different OS?? Like Linux.. I would suggest Mint as a nice distribution to begin with.. it's free and full of love.. or so I'm told on the love part. Or better yet.. just get a Mac.

    Either way I hope you can get your issues resolved. This is a nice place and there are many users who are qualified to help out.

    Jeff.. Click image for larger version. 

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  9.    10 Sep 2016 #9

    I'm surprised to hear an "IT Professional" complaining as you are. I'm a retired LAN/WAN and hardware Help Desk Manager. I also have programming experience working for NASA.

    In the Federal Agency I worked for, whenever a new OS came out, it was not immediately implemented agency wide. Our IT staff evaluated it and tested it before implementing. All the agency application software was tested and validated (or not) with the new OS. Only when the IT staff was assured it would work with the agency hardware was it implemented and in steps not agency wide at the same time. The same held true for the agency mainframes, that ran IBM OS software. When IBM came out with a new version or update, it was tested before implementing on production systems. Basically this gave a lot of "IT Professionals" jobs.

    Obviously individuals do not have the luxury of a large IT staff. However, considering the plethora of potential hardware configurations and application software, Microsoft does a very admirable job implementing a new OS. Overall the biggest majority of users have no problems, only a small fraction have problems. On a forum such as this we hear, mainly, from the small fraction with problems. Just like my Help Desk we never heard from those that did not have problems only when someone had a problem they couldn't resolve themselves. Nobody called the Help Desk to tell us the response time was great today or that their workstation (PC) was working great.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

  10.    10 Sep 2016 #10

    fireberd said: View Post
    I'm surprised to hear an "IT Professional" complaining as you are. I'm a retired LAN/WAN and hardware Help Desk Manager. I also have programming experience working for NASA.

    In the Federal Agency I worked for, whenever a new OS came out, it was not immediately implemented agency wide. Our IT staff evaluated it and tested it before implementing. All the agency application software was tested and validated (or not) with the new OS. Only when the IT staff was assured it would work with the agency hardware was it implemented and in steps not agency wide at the same time. The same held true for the agency mainframes, that ran IBM OS software. When IBM came out with a new version or update, it was tested before implementing on production systems. Basically this gave a lot of "IT Professionals" jobs.

    Obviously individuals do not have the luxury of a large IT staff. However, considering the plethora of potential hardware configurations and application software, Microsoft does a very admirable job implementing a new OS. Overall the biggest majority of users have no problems, only a small fraction have problems. On a forum such as this we hear, mainly, from the small fraction with problems. Just like my Help Desk we never heard from those that did not have problems only when someone had a problem they couldn't resolve themselves. Nobody called the Help Desk to tell us the response time was great today or that their workstation (PC) was working great.
    Hey fireberd, just to let you know, all my pcs and tablets and families devices are working fine .

    Seriously, it would probably get bloody annoying if people kept calling you to say things were fine (unless you like to bask in a self satisfied glow) wouldn't it . Your point is spot on though.
      My ComputerSystem Spec


 
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