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  1.    23 May 2015 #11
    Join Date : Feb 2015
    Bamberg Germany
    Posts : 17,031
    Win10 Pro, Win10 Pro N, Win10 Home, Win10 Pro Insider Fast Ring, Windows 8.1 Pro, Ubuntu

    After reading this thread I went to Gizmodo to check see what's there. And what did I find as the latest listing?
    Americans Value Privacy But Don't Trust Tech Companies To Provide It

    Americans want privacy as much as everóbut in the digital age, most of us think itís a lost cause. That, at least, is the depressing takeaway from a new Pew report, which shows that our faith in digital service providers (and ourselves) to protect our data is abysmally low.
    Top image: Shutterstock

    The report summarizes the results of two surveys of adults age 18-50+, conducted in late 2014 and early 2015 . While more than 9 in 10 adults said controlling who gains access to their private information is important, over 60 percent of survey respondents felt they had little control over the records maintained by social media sites, search engine providers, and online video sites. Also, that the government is basically watching them all the time:
    Americans feel privacy is important in their daily lives in a number of essential ways. Yet, they have a pervasive sense that they are under surveillance when in public and very few feel they have a great deal of control over the data that is collected about them and how it is used.
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  2.    23 May 2015 #12
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Chicagoland
    Posts : 32,509
    Dual boot Windows 10 Pro x 64 CU build 15063 & Insider Build 16273

    @ Slartybart

    I understand your concern and appreciate your post with all the information, however, I must say you went into a rather large dissertation on the subject with what I consider not following linear thought some of the time. Found it somewhat difficult at times to follow, although I did get through it.

    There's a lot of references/links you posted that I'm afraid I wouldn't have time to read in one sitting, although I've read a lot of them already having been using MS devices, OSs, and services for quite some time. Agree that one should be aware of what they're agreeing to as with any company, especially the "fine" print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartybart View Post
    The Privacy choices is what caught my attention. Most are run-of-the-mill choices, but the very first choice stood out as a red flag. This might simply be poor wording on the selection, or it might reflect what is commonly referred to as "OPT-in marketing", where you give explicit rights to use the information you provide to market stuff to you. If it is the latter, then you should NOT opt-in.

    The question as written asks if you want to allow Microsoft access to full details of your contacts and calendars. Note that it does not say Apps or Cortana ... it says Microsoft. To Allay the folks who will say "But Microsoft won't sell your data - they have too much to risk as a company" I can only say Read the agreements. Microsoft won't sell your data, but they will share it with partners - how many partners does MS have? Thousands.
    May I ask if where the question is placed? I think it is a "sub" question within a the category of "Opt-in marketing" option? This was all within setting up a local account during installation?

    "Thousands of partners"? Finding that difficult to believe. Would you please give reference to this statement?

    There is no guaranteed security, any company can be hacked. And while MS is a reputable company, there are recent instances where some breaches of ethics occurred.
    Yes, as per one of your article links explaining that MS employees made a mistake without using the proper channels to do so reading someone's email with suspicion that the person was passing on source code. MS addressed the issue and tightened it's policy. If I remember correctly, ultimately an employee got fired over passing on the code.

    A few more questions. Do you use ATMs? Bank online? Use a browser (which is obvious)? Heard of the "walled garden" system MS and other companies have introduced? Do you think that approach is safer?

    Bottom line in all this > If I'm not doing anything illegal then I don't have to worry. Also, I will give some companies I trust some explicit rights, however, any government I will not.

    In ending, I answer no to the particular question you referred to. I don't care about the emails, but I feel to be ethical about it I would have to ask all my contacts if it's ok to pass on their info. About 150 of them. Don't have that kind of time.
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  3.    23 May 2015 #13
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Penns Forrest
    Posts : 3,506
    Win_8.1-Pro, Win_10.1607-Pro, Mint_17.3
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by HippsieGypsie View Post
    Agree that one should be aware of what they're agreeing to as with any company, especially the "fine" print.
    May I ask if where the question is placed? I think it is a "sub" question within a the category of "Opt-in marketing" option? This was all within setting up a local account during installation?

    "Thousands of partners"? Finding that difficult to believe. Would you please give reference to this statement?

    Yes, as per one of your article links explaining that MS employees made a mistake without using the proper channels to do so reading someone's email with suspicion that the person was passing on source code. MS addressed the issue and tightened it's policy. If I remember correctly, ultimately an employee got fired over passing on the code.

    A few more questions. Do you use ATMs? Bank online? Use a browser (which is obvious)? Heard of the "walled garden" system MS and other companies have introduced? Do you think that approach is safer?

    Bottom line in all this > If I'm not doing anything illegal then I don't have to worry. Also, I will give some companies I trust some explicit rights, however, any government I will not.

    In ending, I answer no to the particular question you referred to. I don't care about the emails, but I feel to be ethical about it I would have to ask all my contacts if it's ok to pass on their info. About 150 of them. Don't have that kind of time.
    Based on your last sentence, I think you do understand the implications. Thanks.

    Sure it was thrown together and not meant to be a dissertation professor. It's a thread, not a tutorial.

    Most people don't read that stuff - it's legalese - talk about hard to follow!

    The question is asked during the install, as I said in the original post.
    When I installed Win10.0.122, I chose a local account by not being connected to the Internet (the only way to force creation of a local account, other than exploiting broken code in creating an MS account)

    I also chose to custom install and not use the Express settings. This choice makes you go through some initial settings and select whether they are turned on or turned off.

    The Privacy choices is what caught my attention. Most are run-of-the-mill choices, but the very first choice stood out as a red flag. This might simply be poor wording on the selection, or it might reflect what is commonly referred to as "Opt-in marketing", where you give explicit rights to use the information you provide to market stuff to you. If it is the latter, then you should NOT opt-in.
    MS employees made a mistake - that's a nice way of putting it. But the chief counsel defended the action and if you read the articles further, you might have seen a few legal reposnses
    legal civil liberties expert Jennifer Granick of the Stanford Law School's Center for Internet and Society said, via Twitter, that Frank's statement was "wrong...At best."

    Edward Wasserman, Graduate School of Journalism dean at the University of California, Berkeley, told The New York Times that he had "never seen a case like this."

    "Microsoft essentially decided that whatever privacy expectation that its own customers supposedly had was basically a dead letter," he said. "It simply decided that in its own corporate interest, it can intrude on a person's email."
    This doesn't seem to be a case of a few bad apples.

    I do not use ATMs, I do bank online
    These are not related to the post. Again, the point is do I allow MS access to full details of my contacts and calendars.
    I'm not sure how the walled garden applies either.

    The safest approach is to NOT opt-in - simply move the slider to off. As I said, and I think I was very fair to MS, the choice is yours.

    Bottom line in all this > If I'm not doing anything illegal then I don't have to worry.
    That's the wrong bottom line as your closing sentence clarifies the entire point. But I always get a kick out it when people bring it up.
    You see the same people who write the criminal laws write the agreements - lawyers!
    Did you know that it is illegal to spit on the sidewalk in certain states? Have you ever spat on a sidewalk? I have.
    Oh hell, now I've done it ... I've admitted to being a criminal .... on the Internet - the black helicopters are circling

    but I feel to be ethical about it I would have to ask all my contacts if it's ok to pass on their info. About 150 of them

    MS partners - see Google results. Wiki: The Microsoft Partner Ecosystem consists of the 640,000 partners

    I think I've addressed the things you asked about, hope this helps.
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  4.    23 May 2015 #14
    Join Date : Oct 2014
    Posts : 2,377
    W10 Pro + W10 Preview

    I have a Microsoft Account and if I forgot my password it would be impossible to open my account without first contacting M$ and quoting previously saved personal information which was made when opening the account.

    As far as I am concerned that makes sense regarding security.
    What have M$ to gain with this info?...zilch....yet this same info safeguards my account.

    Privacy don't make me laugh, cameras sited everywhere, doctors, births, tax, employment records etc,
    and should you live in America lunatics running around with guns.
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  5.    23 May 2015 #15
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Slartybart View Post
    The question as written asks if you want to allow Microsoft access to full details of your contacts and calendars. Note that it does not say Apps or Cortana ... it says Microsoft. To allay the folks who will say "But Microsoft won't sell your data - they have too much to risk as a company" I can only say Read the agreements. Microsoft won't sell your data, but they will share it with partners - how many partners does MS have? Thousands.
    That's not exactly what it says. Here's the actual screen:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Now, what that's saying is that you're allowing Microsoft access to your contacts, calendar, and associated input data *for the purposes of personalizing speech, typing and inking input*. When Microsoft says something is for a specific purpose, they cannot legally use it for a different purpose.

    This is like the huge stir up a while back about there being a "keylogger" in Windows 10 based on the Privacy policy, when all they were doing was laying out the fact that certain functions require data to be sent to them, such as spell checking as you type.

    It's unfortunate that Microsoft feels the need to "dumb down" this text to describe in real technical detail what they use it for, but they apparently feel doing that would confuse users even more.

    Now, notice the 4th setting. See how it explicitly says "and trusted partners"? Why would they do that if they thought they could legally send private data to their partners based on their privacy policy? The answer, is that there are very specific laws governing what companies can and can't do with personal data. And the privacy policy doesn't give them carte blanc to do that.

    Here's Microsoft's privacy statement for Windows 10 (taken from the link in the Privacy dialog in settings)

    http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/w...vacy-statement

    The only place they say that they will share data with partners is this:

    "Microsoft shares some data with our partners to improve how their products and services work with Microsoftís products and services". Note that "some". This does not give them carte blanc to share your personal data without opting-in under the law.

    It also says it may share with parthers who are working for them, but that's a totally different situation. Because they are working as Microsoft's agents, they must abide by the same privacy laws.
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  6.    23 May 2015 #16
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Texas
    Posts : 10,518
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    It says exactly what Bill said it said. You are giving your interpretation of it @Mystere.
    I highlighted what Slartybart said, and he is right.. it says that plain as day. If you want to pick apart what everyone says that s fine, but it clearly shows/says exactly what Slartybart (Bill) said.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  7.    23 May 2015 #17
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude View Post
    It says exactly what Bill said it said. You are giving your interpretation of it @Mystere.
    I highlighted what Slartybart said, and he is right.. it says that plain as day. If you want to pick apart what everyone says that s fine, but it clearly shows/says exactly what Slartybart (Bill) said.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    No, he left out the first part of the sentence, which completely changes what the sentence means. "Personalize your speech, typing, and inking input by...", leaving that out removes the *purpose* of the action, making it seem like you're just sending the data to Microsoft to do with as they please.

    This is legally binding stuff here, so it's not "picking it apart". You can't take a sentence out of context and then argue that it means something in the context you are portraying, when it's not in that context.
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  8.    23 May 2015 #18
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Texas
    Posts : 10,518
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    No, he left out the first part of the sentence, which completely changes what the sentence means. "Personalize your speech, typing, and inking input by...", leaving that out removes the *purpose* of the action, making it seem like you're just sending the data to Microsoft to do with as they please.

    This is legally binding stuff here, so it's not "picking it apart". You can't take a sentence out of context and then argue that it means something in the context you are portraying, when it's not in that context.
    No he referred to what it says, and it says exactly that. I pointed that out in my pic.

    You are not a lawyer here, so stop nit picking and posting your take on it. You are taking your opinion of it and saying he took it out of context. Then you say "This is legally binding stuff here". I doubt you are a lawyer so I suggest you "Lighten Up"
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  9.    23 May 2015 #19
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,143
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by Dude View Post
    No he referred to what it says, and it says exactly that. I pointed that out in my pic.

    You are not a lawyer here, so stop nit picking and posting your take on it. You are taking your opinion of it and saying he took it out of context. Then you say "This is legally binding stuff here". I doubt you are a lawyer so I suggest you "Lighten Up"
    Ahh, I see.. it's perfectly acceptable to speculate about legal meanings when you think you are right, but you must tell everyone else to shut up because they're not a lawyer.

    If you think my interpretation is invalid because i'm not a lawyer, then how do you take his, and what he claims is legally allowed? The problem here is that you're defending someone through the use of a double standard. And that's where you get into trouble.

    The fact of the matter here is that everyone is free to make their own decisions.

    And for the record, it does not say *EXACTLY* what he said. That's like claiming "I love murderers" is *exactly what someone says" when they actually said "I hate everyone who says "I love murderers".

    That's called taking a sentence out of context, when you only take part of it, and then argue based on the new meaning.
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  10.    23 May 2015 #20
    Join Date : Oct 2013
    Texas
    Posts : 10,518
    Windows 10 Pro X64

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Ahh, I see.. it's perfectly acceptable to speculate about legal meanings when you think you are right, but you must tell everyone else to shut up because they're not a lawyer.

    If you think my interpretation is invalid because i'm not a lawyer, then how do you take his, and what he claims is legally allowed? The problem here is that you're defending someone through the use of a double standard. And that's where you get into trouble.

    The fact of the matter here is that everyone is free to make their own decisions.

    And for the record, it does not say *EXACTLY* what he said. That's like claiming "I love murderers" is *exactly what someone says" when they actually said "I hate everyone who says "I love murderers".

    That's called taking a sentence out of context, when you only take part of it, and then argue based on the new meaning.
    No that is not what I mean. He stated what was out there and here is a quote from the end of his opening post

    "There is nothing implied by this post, business is business.
    You simply should be aware of the terms."

    You are entitled to your opinion too, I am not taking sides.

    I am just saying I disagree with you on this one. Your posting style to me has been somewhat abrasive, but that is my opinion.

    My intent is not to fight with you @Mystere I just feel you are wrong here. And you feel I am wrong here, so I will just agree to disagree here
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