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  1.    16 Apr 2015 #31
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,142
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    Windows file managing capabilities could use some serious upgrades, stuff that would be far more useful than many of these other features they have been coming up with of late. Managing files is something your Operating system is supposed to do, and do well...
    Your OS is really supposed to be a basic tool that can be used as a building block for 3rd parties to build full-featured applications. You don't see Microsoft including Office with Windows, despite how useful that would be. They provide basic, minimal, bare necessity functionality for most things. If you want more, there are plenty of people waiting in line to sell you a tool to do it, and even more willing to give you one for free.

    Microsoft is Damned no matter what they do. They will piss off people no matter what choice they make. So frankly, it doesn't matter if X% of people think Windows should have something because X% will say it shouldn't have it, or it should be done a totally different way. That's one reason why Internet Explorer has not been "best in class" or why their anti-virus doesn't have every bell and whistle. It does the basic job.

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    I will say this, I could not figure out an easy way to create those folders you allude to. Without testing, I am pretty sure that in order to create them, you have to work behind the scenes in the startmenu folder of profile, create the folder there, and then somehow manually add the links to the files/programs you want. That's a lot of work, and definitely not something the avg user will be accomplishing... Why even offer it up as a point? The functionality I spoke of is not present.
    Well, it's certainly no more difficult than managing menus in Linux...

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    Also, when windows 8 came out, very few PC's had touch. Very few! They created an OS that catered to (I am going to be liberal in my estimate here) maybe 5% of their user base at the expense of everyone else
    You can't live in the present when designing an OS. You have to design for the future. If you are designing for today, you're already out of date. Windows 8 was the first of a many step release process that will likely take 10+ years. It's called Migration. But the point is, is that Windows 8 wasn't designed just for touch. It was designed for BOTH touch and non-touch.

    What I find the most amusing, however, is that you don't recognize the irony here... You are so vehemently arguing that the majority of users should not have to put up with something that only a small percentage of users would need... yet you are also demanding that MS make Windows explorer have features that only a small number of users would want or need, and want to force them on everyone else as well. It seems that when it suits you, the few are more important than the many

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    1 last point. I did not color my friends, families, or co-workers perspectives about Windows 8. I was someone who really wanted to like windows 8. I installed it, left it vanilla for a long time trying to get used to and see the point of what was new about it. In the end, I installed classic shell
    Your story gives away the fact that you HAVE in fact been coloring them.... "could do that thing I was talking about (classic shell)" clearly says you were bragging about how wonderful it was to them. And, as expected, they took your opinion about how horrible Windows 8 was and how Wonderful Classic Shell was.

    My experience is different. I show people how to use search to find what they want in microseconds. They are amazed. Then I tell them that this existed in Windows 7, and when they use Windows 7 they use that instead of the menu because it's so much faster. I show people that the Windows key is all they need for most things with the OS.

    If someone complains about not knowing how to shut down the computer, I ask them... How do you shut off your TV? Your Car? Phone? Your Stereo? Your Lights? Pretty much every single electronic device that you regularly turn on and off? The same way you turn it on. Well, you do it the same with Windows. You just press the power button on the front of your computer and it shuts down gracefully, just as it has for at least 15 years.... which people still can't seem to understand.

    20 years ago, someone, somewhere said "Don't shut down your computer with the power button, it will do bad things" and this fear has perpetuated ever since, even though that problem was fixed more than 15 years ago with the advent of ACPI power switches.

    I'll say it in big loud letters. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SHUT OFF YOUR COMPUTER THROUGH THE USER INTERFACE. In fact, a computer is literally just about the only electronic thing on the planet in which people insist on doing it this way... why?
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  2.    16 Apr 2015 #32
    Join Date : Nov 2014
    Oregon
    Posts : 155
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter

    Ok, this is now starting to get semi frustrating. I feel like I am now in the middle of an argument with someone who's logic skills are severely challenged, over matters that are rather black and white.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Well, it's certainly no more difficult than managing menus in Linux...
    I work on systems running Linux all day long, and there is plenty of things I prefer about their ecosystem over Windows, especially when it comes to Server functionality. However, I was not trying to compare to them or say they were better was I. I never mentioned Linux. Specifically, I was referring to the start screen that replaced the old start menu in Windows 8, and I was making the suggestion that it could be very much improved if it just had some basic organizing functionality, such as folders. I'm talking about all those new shiny apps that you get from the windows store, and how I would love to put them into containers on my start menu that fanned out when clicked on. It's an enhancement request, but it's also something that I feel should have been considered long ago. I've suggested multiple times via Microsoft's feedback avenues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    What I find the most amusing, however, is that you don't recognize the irony here... You are so vehemently arguing that the majority of users should not have to put up with something that only a small percentage of users would need... yet you are also demanding that MS make Windows explorer have features that only a small number of users would want or need, and want to force them on everyone else as well. It seems that when it suits you, the few are more important than the many
    Ok, here is where you really start to fly into la la land. When I said that it would be great if we had a dual pane option in Windows Explorer, I was not suggesting that this option replace the current functionality. I was suggesting that it would make for a good @#$#ing OPTION. Your argument makes no %#$ing sense. I always prefer more options vs. less, and if Microsoft decided tomorrow to release the dual pane option at the expense of the old single pane, I'd probably be logging into this forum giving them the verbal equivalent of my middle finger via some heated posts. I'd also try to get vocal with direct feedback. The decisions they make have consequences in a lot of folks lives. This is why I am rooting for them to produce a killer product. It's selfishly driven. I want a better product to play and work with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    You can't live in the present when designing an OS. You have to design for the future.
    Designing for the future is all well and good, but when that future you are designing for is not yet at hand, you need to be strategic and cautious about how you go about it. There is a reason Microsoft is back pedaling. They practically have/had a monopoly on their hands, meaning if you were/are a consumer interested in a moderately inexpensive PC, you were/are going to buy a Windows computer pretty much period. They are sort of in a no lose situation, and have been for some time. However, that said, Windows 8 was a loss. It was not received well by the masses, and to say that the only reason for this is because of people like me who go around bad talking Windows 8, is ridiculous. I don't do that by the way. The entire last half of your post I don't want to address, but I will. I always ask folks what they think before I inject my own opinion. My friend mentioned she was having a hard time so I offered to simplify things for her. She turned me down at first, but took me up on it some time later. I am also down to show off search and keyboard shortcuts. As you mentioned, these options were available before in Win 7, and they are fine options that I use from time to time. Still, better to have more options than less, and sometimes I don't feel like typing, or I am eating and i'd rather not type etc. More options trumps less every time. I know you can turn your computer off with the power button on the front, but do you really think that this excuses them burying the power button in some hidden, never before seen location so that experienced computer hacks like myself would have to google it's location. Your reasoning can't be, "Look... I know you can no longer do it that way, but look you can, and always could do it this way, now you just have to, but that's ok because I think it's better." You can't truly believe that this reasoning is somehow sound can you?
    Last edited by musiclover7; 17 Apr 2015 at 00:19.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  3.    16 Apr 2015 #33
    Join Date : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,533
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.2 MATE (64 bit), W10 Home (64 bit)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Your OS is really supposed to be a basic tool that can be used as a building block for 3rd parties to build full-featured applications. You don't see Microsoft including Office with Windows, despite how useful that would be.
    They don't include Office with Windows because:
    • They'd get investigated and fined for monopolistic practices (in Europe and maybe even the US)
    • The cost of PCs would go up by 100s of dollars (top-of-the-line Office)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    So frankly, it doesn't matter if X% of people think Windows should have something because X% will say it shouldn't have it, or it should be done a totally different way. That's one reason why Internet Explorer has not been "best in class" or why their anti-virus doesn't have every bell and whistle. It does the basic job.
    That is entirely MS' own fault (i.e. trying to "strong-arm" other browsers coders into doing things the IE way).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Well, it's certainly no more difficult than managing menus in Linux...
    The Linux GUIs I've used have all included a tool for configuring the menus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    You can't live in the present when designing an OS. You have to design for the future. If you are designing for today, you're already out of date.
    The trouble is that MS manage to screw it up.
    Office 2003 was obviously designed on (and for) wide screen monitors when they were a rarity (it used Sidebars).
    Office 2007 was obviously designed for 4:3 monitors, when they were being replaced by wide screen monitors (the "Ribbon").

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Windows 8 was the first of a many step release process that will likely take 10+ years. It's called Migration. But the point is, is that Windows 8 wasn't designed just for touch. It was designed for BOTH touch and non-touch.
    I don't think that a combined "touch and non-touch" interface was the real problem, although (IMO) if they had provided separate products (desktop & mobile) they would have avoided the poor sales and bad publicity.

    The trouble with the W8 series was that MS:
    • Split function groups (e.g. CP & Settings, Personalization)
    • Shuffled item locations
    • Randomly renamed items
    • Used hidden/invisible controls
    • Used pop-out controls that:
      • Would appear when they weren't required
      • Wouldn't appear when they were required

    • Removed standard functions (e.g. window control buttons)
    • Made all of these changes and then provided its usual abysmal help and tutorial files

    It's like they deliberately tried to create the most annoying GUI they could.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    What I find the most amusing, however, is that you don't recognize the irony here... You are so vehemently arguing that the majority of users should not have to put up with something that only a small percentage of users would need... yet you are also demanding that MS make Windows explorer have features that only a small number of users would want or need, and want to force them on everyone else as well.
    There are a large number of 3rd party commercial file managers (and a few free ones).
    That would seem to suggest that there is actually some demand for them.

    The same "minority of users" argument applies to the Start Screen.
    Now that MS is building W10 to try to appease the majority of its user base (W7 + XP) some people who liked the W8 series are complaining about the changes to the Start Screen.

    The large number of downloads of Classic Shell (presumably the non-free Start Menu replacements too) indicate that a significant number of W8 series users aren't happy with the Start Screen functionality/usability.
    Classic Shell site claim it has had, "over 25 million downloads."
    Note:
    I am not suggesting that there are 25M individuals (or PCs) using Classic Shell (IMO, the number is probably between 2M and 5M CS users).

    Overall the numbers seem to indicate, that the number of users who are happy with the W8 series, are only a small percentage of the total Windows user base.
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  4.    17 Apr 2015 #34
    Join Date : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 10,168
    W10 Insider + Linux

    Since Win 95, file managing on Windows became clunky and unwieldy, still can't get over question why MS didn't leave old file manager from W 3/3.1, luckily, some have seen the inefficiency of such file management and made programs to make it faster and easier. From tweaks to open two (or four) File Explorers at same time to the best yet, "Total Commander".
    File search got to the point of never knowing where it will send you to but a simple program called "Everything" can find any file (or type of file) in a fraction of time Windows search does and higher certainty.
      My ComputersSystem Spec
  5.    17 Apr 2015 #35
    Join Date : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 24,523
    Windows 10 Pro x64

    @musiclover7 I think you need to calm down a bit. You gave your opinion and Mystere gave his.. you don't agree but the way you're arguing with him is just silly. I would advise that backing down and chilling out is the best rout you can take at this point or you might be reported for insulting a member.

    Check the rules..

    Jeff ..
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  6.    17 Apr 2015 #36
    Join Date : Nov 2014
    Oregon
    Posts : 155
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter

    Bunny... thanks... It's strange, cuz if you knew me in real life I am actually a very laid back individual who despises conflict. I did not set out to get confrontational so allow me to appologize of I came off harshly, and yeah, we will likely have to agree to disagree. My buttons got a tad pushed when I got falsely accused of being a hypocrite. Consider me calm and collected.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  7.    17 Apr 2015 #37
    Join Date : Mar 2015
    Posts : 167
    Win 10 Pro x64

    For me, the speed increase is the biggest thing. Just like win 8 runs faster then win 7. Win 10 has a noticeable speed boost over win 8.1.
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  8.    17 Apr 2015 #38
    Join Date : Nov 2014
    Oregon
    Posts : 155
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by bobsagetfullhou View Post
    For me, the speed increase is the biggest thing. Just like win 8 runs faster then win 7. Win 10 has a noticeable speed boost over win 8.1.
    This I am definitely not seeing. For the past few days, my machine has been running much slower than normal. I am contemplating reloading everything...
      My ComputerSystem Spec
  9.    17 Apr 2015 #39
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Nashville, TN
    Posts : 3,142
    Windows 10 Pro

    Quote Originally Posted by musiclover7 View Post
    Bunny... thanks... It's strange, cuz if you knew me in real life I am actually a very laid back individual who despises conflict. I did not set out to get confrontational so allow me to appologize of I came off harshly, and yeah, we will likely have to agree to disagree. My buttons got a tad pushed when I got falsely accused of being a hypocrite. Consider me calm and collected.
    Perhaps you should have noted the smiley at the end of the paragraph. I was just poking fun at you. Of course I understand where you're coming from, although I don't agree with it for the reasons I outlined. However, your response brings an even larger number of issues... such as now Explorer must function in two different modes, which adds complexity both in the software maintenance as well as user experience.. what happens when a novice user accidentally trips into this "advanced" mode? There are a ton of arguments for keeping the basic tools in the OS as simple as possible.
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  10.    17 Apr 2015 #40
    Join Date : Nov 2014
    Oregon
    Posts : 155
    Windows 10
    Thread Starter

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    Perhaps you should have noted the smiley at the end of the paragraph. I was just poking fun at you. Of course I understand where you're coming from, although I don't agree with it for the reasons I outlined. However, your response brings an even larger number of issues... such as now Explorer must function in two different modes, which adds complexity both in the software maintenance as well as user experience.. what happens when a novice user accidentally trips into this "advanced" mode? There are a ton of arguments for keeping the basic tools in the OS as simple as possible.
    It really would be no different or more advanced than any of the other views that they currently maintain... ie: thumbnails, list, details, etc. Also, Smiley's don't really excuse accusing another person of hypocrisy. They don't magically make that ok, especially when there was no hypocrisy to begin with. I like to think of myself as someone who is very open to constructive criticism from others, and capable of self reflection and correction. I can and do admit when I am wrong. I got a little heated in my reply. Sorry for that.
      My ComputerSystem Spec

 
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