U.S. Patent question!

Napkins333 · 18 May 2021

Hi guys, I'm on the hunt to get a "patent lawyer" that would best specialize in "software" as we can imagine.

there is a new software program, concept/idea that needs a patent. (I'll explain later and maybe even some of you could be involved if you have the right heart and love for it!)

I've already looked up what it takes to get a patent and all that, just need recommendations of a patent lawyer if perhaps any of you master Developers have patented your software before..

People like @Kyhi or I know there is many others to mention here, But i just was off-hand thinking about the win10xPE and ImageHealth etc, ha! (and no, the program I am looking for a patent for is not something for recovery or tools like that, the concept is more Cyber Security!)

So I had no idea where to ask this but thought, "hey the super guru developers at ten forums might know!"

- Any ideas or recommendations on finding a good software patent lawyer?

Thanks!

Kyhi · 18 May 2021

Clearly it appears you have enjoyed - the free exchange of ideas - as posted here...

Napkins333 · 18 May 2021

Kyhi said:

Clearly it appears you have enjoyed - the free exchange of ideas - as posted here...

Well yes I have, along with many many others that you helped graciously @Kyhi, and you are more than welcome to check out and even possibly be a part of program should you and the team have like-wise ideas and connect.

Again, by no means is this anything related to your work or your tools and programs, I am simply asking for any developers that may have started to or patented their software and if they recommend any patent lawyers..

If you want, lets take this to a private conversation and you can see the software yourself in POC form..

It has nothing to do with your tools/or copy or anything related to your work in anyway what-so-ever if that is/was your concern, This concept is Cyber Security and Remote software, not Recovery related - which is what I believe most of your tools appears to be right??

Edwin · 18 May 2021

(I just came for the avatar!!!)

Samuria · 18 May 2021

Software is covered more by copytight than patent what ever you do it will be reverse engineered in a short time

desbest · 18 May 2021

Software patents are NOT legally valid in the European Union and America.

The reason for this is because

The majority of software patents are for abstract ideas which require very little imagination or originality to be considered a disruptive or distinct invention, of which could easily be invented eventually by someone else independently. They are plainly obvious. (eg. tabs in a web browser, the right click button on the mouse which caused Macs running OS 9 to be unable to have a right click button so they used Command+Click instead, Amazon 1-click button for purchases, cover flow in itunes and finder on mac)
Software patents do not include the implementation of the feature as in the code a programmer creates to build such features, whereas the patent for a Dyson vacumn cleaner does show the technical implementation
A single software feature a company has, it cannot alone give them a competitive advantage for their software. Windows having more features and customisation won't stop people buying macs. Propellerhead Reason having exclusive synths like Subtractor, Maelstrom and Thor and exclusive audio effects, it won't stop people buying FL Studio and Ableton Live. However the Coca Cola and Red Bull recipe, the cyclone on the Dyson vacumn that took 10,000 prototypes, that feature alone is enough to convince people to pay extra money than their cheaper competitors, and just to reveal the implementation it would cause significant financial and market share damage. The same isn't true for one software feature.
Any typical piece of software like a web browser, email client, image editor, music player, there would be no way to realistically build any such software without violating HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS of software patents. However competitors can build an alternative to a Dyson vacumn, Apple iPod without violating Dyson's or Apple's patents (for hardware).

However there is a such thing as licensing.

To be able to save and convert audio to mp3 or for video in mp4, a license fee has to be paid to MPEG-LA. The encoder is not open source it's proprietary. This is why open source software doesn't support mp3 and mp4. (And if they do, they include a hyperlink to such a plugin on some sketchy faceless website to avoid legally implicating themselves.)
Every time you buy an android phone, some of that money goes to Microsoft as a licensing fee.
Some of the plugins (including the support for various file formats) in Photoshop that are built in, they are made by third party companies and Adobe has to pay these third party companies to include their plugins in photoshop.

Napkins333 · 18 May 2021

I'm going to answer each of you individually, but why does it feel like you all think I'm trying to do something bad with developing software?? or steal something??

It is an odd feeling around here.. with a place that has been such a helpful resource and filled with extremely helpful people before..

In any-case, I will answer you all shortly. And again, I just wanted to know if anyone has any experience patenting software..

nothing malicious or any of that.

But thank you all for at least answering some. I will reply to some of you with specific responses.

- - - Updated - - -

Samuria said:

Software is covered more by copytight than patent what ever you do it will be reverse engineered in a short time

Ok, but that is not the problem, that is just a way for others to discover what we create? so i mean oh well right??

They still don't have the the bigger picture of where it can go though or our full idea where we want to go with it.. but yes, let the people reverse engineer it, fine. It does not change our goals and mission.

But I appreciate the response.

- - - Updated - - -

desbest said:

Software patents are NOT legally valid in the European Union and America.

Well thank you for the very much for the detailed response, but I need to look into this further as I am finding out more information :

this is from the - World Intellectual Property Organization -

Source: official site: WIPO - World Intellectual Property Organization

Look at these patents and why would they patent this and these are not valid in America etc ?

unknown — ImgBB

unknown — ImgBB

desbest · 18 May 2021

In theory, theory and practise is the same. In practise, they are not.

Yes you can legally register a patent for it (on paper), but you cannot legally enforce your patent (in reality). Intellectual property rights do not exist for software patents in America and European Union.

Intellectual property law when it first got invented, it was governed by the Berne Convention where 179 countries worldwide agreed to enforce copyright law. Given how globalisation exists, there would be no use one country following copyright law if other countries didn't follow it as well. So whereas copyright law (and other intellectual property law like trademarks, patents, design patents, anti-piracy and anti-counterfeit) is considered de facto worldwide, even though technically there's 21 countries which don't respect copyright law, when it comes to "software patents" (not patents) you will find that lots of countries refuse to enforce them, they just don't.

If you must know, European Union does not respect software patent law, they refuse to follow it, I know that for a fact. With America I'm not quite sure, but I think not, don't quote me on that. Now some countries do, but even though it's some, it's so few that it won't give you the protection and intellectual property rights you want.

Well for a company that is designed to make a profit, some countries is better than no countries. Also simply by owning a patent or software patent in one country, it can be used as leverage if your competitor decides to directly harm you by suing you or if they are anti-competitive by using their "vertical integration" to use their dominance in one market to get your product or service eliminated in another market by threatening your customers to drop you, because then you can use patent trolling as a counter-measure.

Multinational companies are highly litigious and will sue their competitors in frivolous lawsuits and they will be trigger happy when issuing a cease and desist, in order to maintain their monopoly. A multinational company will have their lawyers advise them not to continue infringing on a software patent once they receive a cease and desist from a smaller company, because to do otherwise, would set a precedent, so then the change in case law would therefore mean that they can no longer do the same thing you did. So it would be disadvantageous for them to debase the law, even more so than it would be for you. But just because a multinational company would listen to your cease and desist, it doesn't mean that they legally have to. They just weighed up the pros and cons and the potential repercussions 5 years down the line from other companies. They know the countries where software patents can be legally enforced, and they figured they can use such things to destroy their competitors in those countries, so them complying to your cease and desist even if it has no legal basis, will help them win the battle with their competitors somewhere else.

bobkn · 18 May 2021

A quick Web search yielded: Software Patents - IPWatchdog.com | Patents & Patent Law The claim is that software is indeed patentable in the US. The traditional criteria are that the thing being patented is original, useful, not obvious, and not covered by prior art. Not to be cynical, but you might be surprised at the number of patents that break some or all of those. Patent examiners are overworked and underpaid.

I have zero experience with software patents. However, at a former employer, one of the software wizards had a patent on an algorithm. I know that a competitor to that company had a patent on a processing technique that was (in my opinion) vastly superior to what my employer had on what was otherwise functionally identical hardware.

I owned a piece of a patent or two, but for pure hardware. (Not digital hardware. Optical.) The most meaningful patent got me $600, more than 20 years ago. It was small consolation for my having been laid off from the company a few months before they cut the check.

The message from a patent attorney was: don't try to get a patent without the services of a patent attorney.

An implied message from elsewhere: it probably won't be cheap.

Best of luck.

Napkins333 · 19 May 2021

bobkn said:

A quick Web search yielded: Software Patents - IPWatchdog.com | Patents & Patent Law The claim is that software is indeed patentable in the US. The traditional criteria are that the thing being patented is original, useful, not obvious, and not covered by prior art. Not to be cynical, but you might be surprised at the number of patents that break some or all of those. Patent examiners are overworked and underpaid.

I have zero experience with software patents. However, at a former employer, one of the software wizards had a patent on an algorithm. I know that a competitor to that company had a patent on a processing technique that was (in my opinion) vastly superior to what my employer had on what was otherwise functionally identical hardware.

I owned a piece of a patent or two, but for pure hardware. (Not digital hardware. Optical.) The most meaningful patent got me $600, more than 20 years ago. It was small consolation for my having been laid off from the company a few months before they cut the check.

The message from a patent attorney was: don't try to get a patent without the services of a patent attorney.

An implied message from elsewhere: it probably won't be cheap.

Best of luck.

Thank you for the response, and big thanks on the info as well, yes I am looking for a patent lawyer and not worried about the cost of it believe it or not!

I just want to patent this concept and get it rolling, it's a game changer in the cybersecurity and remote software world.

I wish @Kyhi didn't' think I have over-enjoyed the free knowledge offered here, as he and others are more than welcome to collaborate if they so think they would like to know more about a new concept and software that will be coming out that is filling in a missing link to the out-of-date current security solutions offered on the market right now.

That is all I'm after, to push out an amazing software written by an amazing developer who specializes in Networking and Cyber-Security. No more, No less.