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  1. Joined : Jan 2014
    Posts : 699
    Host W8.0 x64 Guest W10 x86
       09 Sep 2014 #21

    I don't think it's the office suite holding people back. It's that plain text editors feel clunky in Linux when you were introduced to text editing in Windows. Something like EditPad Lite Linux would go a long way to alleviate the strangeness.

    People don't want to learn bizarre key bindings just to dash off an email. I did Linux for a few years. Various releases of Slackware, Redhat, Mandrake etc.. But it still felt awkward because of the text editing. I used kylix IDE for text editing just because it had Windows key binding set by default.

    Without Windows text editor key bindings the only way to get people on Linux is to send them to Linux brainwash camp to learn text editing when they first learn to read.
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  2.    10 Sep 2014 #22

    For me, personally, I simply find any Linux extremely bothersome because even if I want to install a single program, I have to use the Terminal. I'm constantly either searching for tutorials on how to make something work, or opening up a Terminal to add repositories. Annoying as hell!
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  3. Joined : Jan 2014
    Posts : 246
       10 Sep 2014 #23

    Lee said: View Post
    . . .sorry Mike there just isn't. WordPerfect died twenty years ago, and the only thing going for them are a few U.S. government office that still use it. Microsoft Office is so imbedded that at the present time no one (not even the freebie) are capable of breaking their hold on the Office software.
    Actually, WordPerfect is alive, well, and raising....well, you know what I mean.
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  4. Joined : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,386
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18.1 MATE (64 bit), W10IP VM, W10 Home
       10 Sep 2014 #24

    MilesAhead said: View Post
    I don't think it's the office suite holding people back. It's that plain text editors feel clunky in Linux when you were introduced to text editing in Windows. Something like EditPad Lite Linux would go a long way to alleviate the strangeness.

    People don't want to learn bizarre key bindings just to dash off an email. I did Linux for a few years. Various releases of Slackware, Redhat, Mandrake etc.. But it still felt awkward because of the text editing. I used kylix IDE for text editing just because it had Windows key binding set by default.

    Without Windows text editor key bindings the only way to get people on Linux is to send them to Linux brainwash camp to learn text editing when they first learn to read.
    Windows and Linux text editors seem pretty much identical to me except that most Linux versions support tabs and Notepad doesn't (I use "Notepad++" in W7 and "Pluma" in LM17).

    Apart from "Ctrl + Shift + Z" instead of "Ctrl + Y" (and the Windows specific ones) the standard shortcuts that I use seem to be present.

    Some Distros seem to be adding more Windows-like elements.
    Linux Mint 17 uses the Windows key to open the Start Menu and it supports side-by-side window snapping.

    OTOH, if you are talking about the Terminal editors (like "nano", "vi", "vim", etc.) then I agree.
    TAFE made us use those when I was studying Networking.

    Gornot said: View Post
    For me, personally, I simply find any Linux extremely bothersome because even if I want to install a single program, I have to use the Terminal. I'm constantly either searching for tutorials on how to make something work, or opening up a Terminal to add repositories. Annoying as hell!
    You must be doing a lot of experimenting/tinkering to need to use the Terminal for installations (and new repositories).

    Ordinary programs are normally available in the Package Manager.
    Of course the problem is knowing the name of the package.
    There can be weird issues if you try to run programs that are designed for other DEs (or you have Broadcom wireless).

    That said, I agree that users need to open the Terminal far too often.

    In my case, I find that I often have to open the Terminal, because the GUI tools aren't good enough.
    I've seen people complaining about the non-Metro Windows GUI, but most of the time the GUI provides adequate access to the things that I need.

    Little details are better in Windows too.
    For example, when you hover the mouse pointer over an image:
    • The Windows tooltip displays the dimensions and size
    • The Linux Mint tooltip doesn't


    OS X looks nice, but I don't understand why people say it is easier to use than Windows.
    IMO, it is the built in features/functions that make people say that (file previews).
    MS couldn't add those sort of features (for years) due to potential monopoly lawsuit issues.

    Overall I'd say that the Linux Distros I've tried are still a little bit clunky compared to Windows 7 (and OS X).
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  5. Joined : Sep 2014
    Posts : 233
    10 preview 64bit
       16 Sep 2014 #25

    None of them are a windows killer,
    IF and when the MS Wine compatability program finally gets support from the gambling sites, thats when things will change.

    Roy
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  6. Joined : Sep 2014
    Posts : 2,923
    Windows 10 Pro
       16 Sep 2014 #26

    Every year for the last 21 years has been "This will be the year of Linux on the desktop!"... It's become a huge joke.

    The very thing that Linux enthusiasts absolutely will not give up in Linux is the very thing that makes Linux incompatible with the average user/corporate desktop. And that thing is choice. Too much choice. Way too many options, too many choices, half finished this and that and when you complain they say "Well, if you don't like it, use something else" or "Well, you should know not to use that, it's rubbish, use this instead" except you get a different opinion on what "this" is based on every person you talk to.

    Linux sucks on the desktop because there are a million developers all doing their own thing, rather than focusing their efforts on one (or even 2 or 3) single polished systems. There's lots of stuff that's not sexy, or fun that needs to get done and nobody is doing it because they're not being paid. Everything is bolted together, and it's clear to even novice users how poorly everything interoperates.

    I can point to just 3 things which have been huge problems for YEARS, that nobody has done anything about.. because they're not problems to the developers.

    1) Applications don't have embedded resources in Linux, so you can't just point your GUI at an application and have it extract icons. You need to ship icons with the applications separately, and when you configure the GUI you have to link the apps to these icons. This is something both Windows and MacOS have done since, well.. forever.

    2) Not a single desktop GUI has simple drag and drop menus. You have to configure them all via clumsy editors or configuration files. You can't just right click on something and choose "Add to menu" or drag it to the menu. Or drag stuff around in the menus to rearrange them.

    3) The UI's still don't work correctly with multiple monitors. Oh sure, you might be able to get something configured, but it won't work with certain software, and if you have multiple monitors with different resolutions and different DPI's it's even worse. This is something that has just worked in both Windows and MacOS for over a decade. Just plug and play. Again, this is because everything is bolted together, and not everything uses a single common interface. (I know, I know, someone will tell me they have it working perfectly, and to that I say you're just lucky because you aren't doing something that breaks it).

    These are just 3 examples of literally hundreds of things typical users run into when they try to use Linux. But they are good examples of how things are always half done in Linux.

    As for Office, there is always the argument that "most people only use 10%", yeah, but everyone uses a different 10%. What's more, the real problem with software like Open Office and other clones is not that it doesn't have the features you need, it's that you might get a document from someone else that you need to open that uses any random set of features. What's more, you may need to modify that document, or annotate it, and send it back... all too often software like Open Office will corrupt documents when it encounters stuff it doesn't support.

    Then comes the macros... which OpenOffice is not compatible with... many offices have years of macros and other documents built up to do things that OpenOffice will need to be rewritten to accommodate.. nobody wants to spend the time to do that.

    Finally, the killer app is Outlook. If you don't support Exchange, with scheduling, room management, shared schedules, etc... then nobody is going to switch. They're not all going to convert to Google Calendar and Gmail.

    Then there's all the custom add-ins.. both developed in house and purchased.. Stuff like Business Contact Manager, CRM Integration, Act!, etc...

    Hell, nowadays, I find OneNote to be something I can hardly live without. I think a lot of other people are feeling the same. There's nothing even close on Linux.

    Let's not even get started with mobile app integration... Want to link your phone's contacts to your mail contacts and scheduler? Want apps that are written for your phone, desktop, and table? You will find a very small selection available for Linux.

    For a while Linux was growing, but nowadays I think it's slipping behind the curve... Each passing year its becoming less and less relevant on the desktop. It will likely always have a place on the server, and while it's technically the under pinnings of Android it's really just the kernel, the rest of the OS is all Android.
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  7.    18 Sep 2014 #27

    First-off I agree with hippsie, far too much discussion regarding Linux on Windows forums... but a last word from me..

    If one enjoys Windows features stick to Windows - Linux is not developed to the same spec and thus does not pretend to be a Windows substitute - the arguments regarding the lack of Windows or Apple features is thus superfluous.

    Each OS should be kept separate. Wine should never have happened - nor should any Android emulators for that matter. If something cannot run natively, it does not belong on that system.

    Hopefully no more Linux whining... if so, a Linux forum would be more appropiate.
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  8. Joined : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 6,938
    All kinds
       19 Sep 2014 #28

    Superfly said: View Post
    First-off I agree with hippsie, far too much discussion regarding Linux on Windows forums... but a last word from me..

    If one enjoys Windows features stick to Windows - Linux is not developed to the same spec and thus does not pretend to be a Windows substitute - the arguments regarding the lack of Windows or Apple features is thus superfluous.

    Each OS should be kept separate. Wine should never have happened - nor should any Android emulators for that matter. If something cannot run natively, it does not belong on that system.

    Hopefully no more Linux whining... if so, a Linux forum would be more appropiate.
    To judge something you have to compare it to alternatives, you know, things like good-bad, heaven-hell, God-devil........... Without a mark you can't hit the target. Comparing Windows to closest alternatives, Linux and Mac as closest ones I think is in order but Android (as it is now) is too far in purpose to compare for PCs at least.
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  9. Joined : Jan 2014
    Posts : 699
    Host W8.0 x64 Guest W10 x86
       19 Sep 2014 #29

    lehnerus2000 said: View Post
    Windows and Linux text editors seem pretty much identical to me except that most Linux versions support tabs and Notepad doesn't (I use "Notepad++" in W7 and "Pluma" in LM17).

    Apart from "Ctrl + Shift + Z" instead of "Ctrl + Y" (and the Windows specific ones) the standard shortcuts that I use seem to be present.

    Some Distros seem to be adding more Windows-like elements.
    Linux Mint 17 uses the Windows key to open the Start Menu and it supports side-by-side window snapping.

    OTOH, if you are talking about the Terminal editors (like "nano", "vi", "vim", etc.) then I agree.
    TAFE made us use those when I was studying Networking.
    I'm talking about editors like Emacs. Not word processors. Emacs wasn't so bad until I needed help. Then I got bogged in the help key bindings. Very frustrating when you go into help to find a key binding but then you can't because you didn't memorize the help key bindings. Back when I was doing it there was one plain text editor that ran on X with bindings very similar to Windows editors. I think it was written in Python. Trouble was it would blow up every so often. Emacs, X-emacs... just unnatural to me. It seemed like anything with Windows like bindings wasn't stable. Stuff like kedit and kmail would blow up frequently. Perhaps they are perfected now though.
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  10. Joined : Jan 2014
    Posts : 699
    Host W8.0 x64 Guest W10 x86
       19 Sep 2014 #30

    Gornot said: View Post
    For me, personally, I simply find any Linux extremely bothersome because even if I want to install a single program, I have to use the Terminal. I'm constantly either searching for tutorials on how to make something work, or opening up a Terminal to add repositories. Annoying as hell!
    Back at the turn of 2.0 kernel I would agree. Windows was double click the installer and start using. Linux was expand the package and spend 2 weeks getting it to work right. But the difference was the Linux, once configured, was solid like a rock. Windows you had to keep fixing and fixing and fixing the same programs to keep them working.

    You could try a graphical point and click package manager. But I do believe if you totally shun the console in Linux you'll be running a crippled system. Especially stuff like text manipulation and stream editing.. there's stuff you can do in a couple of lines on the console you'd have to write a program to do in Windows. On many forums people want to do complex text substitutions and filtering in Windows. I point them to sed one liner pages and Windows ports of sed and nawk.
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