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  1. Joined : Dec 2015
    Posts : 7
    Several
       04 Dec 2015 #241

    hTconeM9user said: View Post
    JW0914
    Fully agree with you on all points I look after loads of laptops and computers
    All different makes and not once have I hit any problem, because I do 2 things.
    Make sure all updates are working and all drivers are genuine.
    I have installed a driver updater on all systems I look after, which monitors and updates drivers if and when needed
    Scans in the background very 2 hours if it finds any out of date or a newer version then just installs them for me.

    There is a known issue with the latest two windows update that causes the OS to freeze. There are many stating it happens whilst using chrome. Any of us who manage over 1000 PC's roll out updates to 10 machines for a month to see if anything goes to hell. We will not be applying the two previous updates until a fix rolls out for either chrome or windows 10. All 10 of our test PC's are freezing randomly, only with the google process running. System does not leave anything in the event viewer as it is a complete kernel crash. All machines have had their memory, hard drives and video cards tested.

    Very likely an issue with the latest updates for those who have accepted the free upgrade.

    Most driver updater programs are malware as windows has the whql approved driver library integrated. Which driver updater program are you using?
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  2. Joined : Nov 2015
    Posts : 181
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       04 Dec 2015 #242

    sharpestknife said: View Post
    There is a known issue with the latest two windows update that causes the OS to freeze. There are many stating it happens whilst using chrome. All 10 of our test PC's are freezing randomly, only with the google process running. System does not leave anything in the event viewer as it is a complete kernel crash. All machines have had their memory, hard drives and video cards tested.
    It's an environment issue then... if it was indeed an issue with Windows 10 itself, I, and every other user, would be able to replicate the issue. (I use Chrome and Chrome Beta exclusively and have never had an issue since Windows 10 was RTM.)

    Have you or any other user submitted bug reports to Google (Help -> Report an issue...)? Have other versions of Chrome been tried (Beta, Dev, Canary)? Is the correct version of Chrome being used for the architecture installed (x86 or x64)? Is the issue able to be replicated inside of a VM on the affected device(s)? Is it able to be replicated on a device that's been clean installed, had system critical drivers installed in the proper order prior to Windows Update being ran, Windows update ran afterwards, and no other software installed (including internet security/antivirus/antimalware)? Have the Google forum been perused to determine if a substantial amount of users are reporting the same experience?

    (The following is not said to discount your post, simply an observation)
    Majority of end users are reporting this issue and that issue, claiming their issues are due to Windows 10. At present, majority of all issues reported for Windows 10 since RTM are a direct result of the user's environment and not Windows 10 itself. Because most users reporting issues rarely bother to actually troubleshoot their issue(s), I've come to view a statement of such with a grain of salt. This doesn't discount their experience(s), simply that majority of users are blaming Windows 10 when their actual issues are their own environment.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  3. Joined : Jul 2015
    Eastbourne East Sussex UK
    Posts : 2,397
    Windows 10 Home x64: 1607 Redstone (1) Build 143934.479
       04 Dec 2015 #243

    O somewhere I was reading Chrome has several bugs and security issues in it and they have been reported
    The firm that found them is being paid for finding them and reporting them,
    I have to see a laptop today that has windows 7 on it and he installed the latest chrome and it has frozen his laptop and crashed it
    So not a windows 10 or update error but Chrome its self
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  4. Joined : Dec 2015
    Posts : 7
    Several
       04 Dec 2015 #244

    JW0914 said: View Post
    It's an environment issue then... if it was indeed an issue with Windows 10 itself, I, and every other user, would be able to replicate the issue. (I use Chrome and Chrome Beta exclusively and have never had an issue since Windows 10 was RTM.)

    Have you or any other user submitted bug reports to Google (Help -> Report an issue...)? Have other versions of Chrome been tried (Beta, Dev, Canary)? Is the correct version of Chrome being used for the architecture installed (x86 or x64)? Is the issue able to be replicated inside of a VM on the affected device(s)? Is it able to be replicated on a device that's been clean installed, had system critical drivers installed in the proper order prior to Windows Update being ran, Windows update ran afterwards, and no other software installed (including internet security/antivirus/antimalware)? Have the Google forum been perused to determine if a substantial amount of users are reporting the same experience?

    (The following is not said to discount your post, simply an observation)
    Majority of end users are reporting this issue and that issue, claiming their issues are due to Windows 10. At present, majority of all issues reported for Windows 10 since RTM are a direct result of the user's environment and not Windows 10 itself. Because most users reporting issues rarely bother to actually troubleshoot their issue(s), I've come to view a statement of such with a grain of salt. This doesn't discount their experience(s), simply that majority of users are blaming Windows 10 when their actual issues are their own environment.
    To answer your first paragraph, yes. Clean installs, latest updates. As far as browsing the google forums, I tend not to trust forums. I don't browse forums often, I feel that people on there are stupid and trying to rack up some weird points or post counts. I see people saying that their computer beeps when they try to start it and at least one person will reply with an obviously copy/pasted answer about posting a hijackthis log or tell them to to check for spyware...

    The only reason I posted here was because of all the news I had read while researching a PC that freezes only in windows 10. Same PC with any other operating system works flawlessly (well for as long as we've had to test them).

    If you're talking about environment as far as what hardware. You could very well be correct, the issue did occur as a result of the latest two windows updates. All the systems affected with the issue have add-in nv gtx/quadro graphics cards. We did find 2 systems that haven't crashed after we removed the card and did a fresh install. It would still happen using integrated graphics before the reinstall.

    How many PC's do you have with the latest Windows 10 update? I would be interested to know if a greater sample size than mine is not having issues.

    Anywho. Looks like we're rolling everyone back to windows 7 for the next 6 months at least.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  5. Joined : Nov 2015
    Posts : 181
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       04 Dec 2015 #245

    sharpestknife said: View Post
    To answer your first paragraph, yes. Clean installs, latest updates. As far as browsing the google forums, I tend not to trust forums. I don't browse forums often, I feel that people on there are stupid and trying to rack up some weird points or post counts. I see people saying that their computer beeps when they try to start it and at least one person will reply with an obviously copy/pasted answer about posting a hijackthis log or tell them to to check for spyware...
    Isn't that irritating? MVPs on Microsoft's forums do that 90% of the time, providing a worthless reply to what was asked.

    sharpestknife said: View Post
    The only reason I posted here was because of all the news I had read while researching a PC that freezes only in windows 10. Same PC with any other operating system works flawlessly (well for as long as we've had to test them).

    If you're talking about environment as far as what hardware. You could very well be correct, the issue did occur as a result of the latest two windows updates. All the systems affected with the issue have add-in nv gtx/quadro graphics cards. We did find 2 systems that haven't crashed after we removed the card and did a fresh install. It would still happen using integrated graphics before the reinstall.

    How many PC's do you have with the latest Windows 10 update? I would be interested to know if a greater sample size than mine is not having issues.

    Anywho. Looks like we're rolling everyone back to windows 7 for the next 6 months at least.
    I should have specified what I meant by environment, which is hardware [mainly MB and anything physically attached to it], and 3rd party drivers and software.

    I only have Win 10 running on my personal laptop (AW 18), however I'm usually on this forum, Spiceworks, or Microsoft's answer forum daily chiming in on issues users are having with their devices since upgrading to 10; however, besides building my own custom deployment for my PC with MDT, I have no experience with deploying multiple machines in a business setting.

    Have you tried adjusting any of the flags on Chrome (chrome://flags)? Here's the most common causes I've come across for wonkiness with Windows 10:
    • not clean installing and performing the correct chronological steps afterwards
    • utilizing non-Win 10 drivers for system critical hardware (anything attached to the motherboard), with the exception of CPU drivers [Chipset, IMEI, etc.), which must be installed regardless of what OS they were originally built for.
    • Installing Windows 10 driver packagers in which the manufacturer or OEM has inadvertently included Windows 8 dll's and sys files in (Broadcom/Dell Wireless WiFi AC drivers for Win 10 fall into this category) This would result in BSODs and fault messages.
    • Installing internet security software (antivirus/malware/HIPS/etc.) that may claim itself to be Windows 10 compatible, but in reality is not. This may or may not still be an issue, however I know a few months back users installing IS software from a major IS developer had issues, as while the software claimed to be Windows 10 compatible, in reality it wasn't (I vaguely remember the name of the company, however since I'm not 100% sure I'm recalling the name correctly, I don't believe it's okay to post it)

    None of this is to say there aren't minor bugs in Windows 10 that aren't environment related, there are. For example, a pre-RTM bug popped up again in build 1511 that prevents the installation of TCP/IP services for network adapters, providing an error that implies group policy is blocking it, even though it isn't. Another is corruption caused to WinSxS's (specifically wow64_microsoft-windows-r..xwddmdriver-wow64-c_31bf3856ad364e35_10.0.10586.0_none_3dae054b56911c22) backup of opencl.dll, as well as the opencl.dll contained within the system directory upon installation of AMD drivers.

    Your specific problem appears to be graphics driver related (unless the two PCs mentioned were the only ones with that specific issue).
    • In regards to integrated drivers, did you install the latest ones direct from from Intel for Windows 10 (I don't recommend installing OEM approved drivers, unless there's no other alternative or it's CPU related drivers, mainly because they're always out of date and are more akin to the way carriers treat Android)? (Same goes for the discrete [GPU] drivers.)
    • Did you also install the Intel RST drivers, as these are required for integrated graphics to work properly (I have no clue why, ,however I do know several issues that are caused by not having them installed, or not having an updated version installed, one of which is the infamous black screen with only a mouse cursor issue).
    • Have you verified your running the most up to date BIOS as well as the video firmware for your GPUs?
    Last edited by JW0914; 04 Dec 2015 at 11:15.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  6. Joined : Nov 2015
    Posts : 181
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       04 Dec 2015 #246

    Chrome issues could also be caused by an extension or corrupted user profile...

    To rule out a corrupted user profile:
    • Completely close out chrome, ensuring nothing is running in the background via task manager.
      • Navigate to "%AppData%\Local\Google\Chrome" and rename User Data to User Data.old
      • Open Chrome back up and re-login if necessary. It will take anywhere from 10 - 30 minutes to download and apply all your custom settings

    • Navigate to chrome://help and verify you're running the most recent version of Chrome
      • Chrome should auto update as soon as it opens if one is available, however this is dependent upon the update service being set to automatic

    • Navigate to chrome://settings -> Advanced Settings, then untick Continue running background apps when Google Chrome is closed
    • While Chrome is open and the foremost application, hit Shift + ESC to bring up Chrome's Task Manager. Keep it visible to determine if it registers anything when the hangs/freezes/crashes occur.
    • Navigate to chrome://components and check all listed for an update
    • Navigate to chrome://flags and reset all to default (prior to determining if tweaking a few flags helps)

    Prior to downgrading, if nothing in my last two posts help, try uninstalling chrome and downloading the Beta or Dev channel from The Chromium Projects. (Ensure you select the correct architecture) Canary can be utilized, however it's not recommended to run it as the main browser since it gets bleeding edge code daily
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  7. Joined : Dec 2015
    Posts : 7
    Several
       04 Dec 2015 #247

    JW0914 said: View Post
    Chrome issues could also be caused by an extension or corrupted user profile...

    To rule out a corrupted user profile:
    • Completely close out chrome, ensuring nothing is running in the background via task manager.
      • Navigate to "%AppData%\Local\Google\Chrome" and rename User Data to User Data.old
      • Open Chrome back up and re-login if necessary. It will take anywhere from 10 - 30 minutes to download and apply all your custom settings

    • Navigate to chrome://help and verify you're running the most recent version of Chrome
      • Chrome should auto update as soon as it opens if one is available, however this is dependent upon the update service being set to automatic

    • Navigate to chrome://settings -> Advanced Settings, then untick Continue running background apps when Google Chrome is closed
    • While Chrome is open and the foremost application, hit Shift + ESC to bring up Chrome's Task Manager. Keep it visible to determine if it registers anything when the hangs/freezes/crashes occur.
    • Navigate to chrome://components and check all listed for an update
    • Navigate to chrome://flags and reset all to default (prior to determining if tweaking a few flags helps)


    Prior to downgrading, if nothing in my last two posts help, try uninstalling chrome and downloading the Beta or Dev channel from The Chromium Projects


    • Ensure you select the correct architecture
    I'm sorry. I had intended for clean install to imply that there were no profiles or extensions other than default installed.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  8. Joined : Nov 2015
    Posts : 181
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       04 Dec 2015 #248

    sharpestknife said: View Post
    I'm sorry. I had intended for clean install to imply that there were no profiles or extensions other than default installed.
    Was chrome logged into? If it was, the login downloads and restores all settings, extensions, and bookmarks.

    I would recommend taking a look at the video drivers and/or seeing if disabling/enabling certain flags will work. There's something wonky going on that isn't due to Chrome or directly due to Windows 10, most likely of which is due to a driver.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  9. Joined : Dec 2015
    Posts : 7
    Several
       04 Dec 2015 #249

    JW0914 said: View Post
    Isn't that irritating? MVPs on Microsoft's forums do that 90% of the time, providing a worthless reply to what was asked.


    I should have specified what I meant by environment, which is hardware [mainly MB and anything physically attached to it], and 3rd party drivers and software.

    I only have Win 10 running on my personal laptop (AW 18), however I'm usually on this forum, Spiceworks, or Microsoft's answer forum daily chiming in on issues users are having with their devices since upgrading to 10; however, besides building my own custom deployment for my PC with MDT, I have no experience with deploying multiple machines in a business setting.

    Have you tried adjusting any of the flags on Chrome (chrome://flags)? Here's the most common causes I've come across for wonkiness with Windows 10:
    • not clean installing and performing the correct chronological steps afterwards
    • utilizing non-Win 10 drivers for system critical hardware (anything attached to the motherboard), with the exception of CPU drivers [Chipset, IMEI, etc.), which must be installed regardless of what OS they were originally built for.
    • Installing Windows 10 driver packagers in which the manufacturer or OEM has inadvertently included Windows 8 dll's and sys files in the Win 10 driver package (Broadcom/Dell Wireless WiFi AC drivers for Win 10 fall into this category) This would result in BSODs and fault messages.
    • Installing internet security software (antivirus/malware/HIPS/etc.) that may claim itself to be Windows 10 compatible, but in reality is not. This may or may not still be an issue, however I know a few months back users installing IS software from a major IS developer had issues, as while the software claimed to be Windows 10 compatible, in reality it wasn't (I vaguely remember the name of the company, however since I'm not 100% sure I'm recalling the name correctly, I don't believe it's okay to post it)

    None of this is to say there aren't minor bugs in Windows 10 that aren't environment related, there are. For example, a pre-RTM bug popped up again in build 1511 that prevents the installation of TCP/IP services for network adapters, providing an error that implies group policy is blocking it, even though it isn't. Another is corruption caused to WinSxS's (specifically wow64_microsoft-windows-r..xwddmdriver-wow64-c_31bf3856ad364e35_10.0.10586.0_none_3dae054b56911c22) backup of opencl.dll, as well as the opencl.dll contained within the system directory upon installation of AMD drivers.

    Your specific problem appears to be graphics driver related (unless the two PCs mentioned were the only ones with that specific issue).
    • In regards to integrated drivers, did you install the latest ones direct from from Intel for Windows 10 (I don't recommend installing OEM approved drivers, unless there's no other alternative or it's CPU related drivers, mainly because they're always out of date and are more akin to the way carriers treat Android)? (Same goes for the discrete [GPU] drivers.)
    • Did you also install the Intel RST drivers, as these are required for integrated graphics to work properly (I have no clue why, ,however I do know several issues that are caused by not having them installed, or not having an updated version installed, one of which is the infamous black screen with only a mouse cursor issue).
    • Have you verified your running the most up to date BIOS as well as the video firmware for your GPUs?
    Creating your own custom deployment with MDT is more experience than most of the people we hire haha. It's not much more complicated beyond that btw. Nothing is really.

    I was close with the graphics card. I believe I've solved my issue. I believe It is the default whql audio driver that windows installed interacting with the hdmi audio out driver on the graphics cards. Google hangouts and many other html 5 threads will cause this to happen very fast. I am at the point where I can replicate the crash within 2 minutes. Installed the latest audio driver from the manufacturer and we'll see what happens. So far I have been unable to replicate with the new driver.

    This may be the issue that others are having with their games causing the same freeze/bsod error in windows 10 as well. The DRM or client browser may be using some html 5 functionality while audio is playing. I haven't played any games in a while and we don't do that at work so I'm not entirely sure but I do know that most folks have a browser up no matter what they're doing.

    I'm glad too. Rolling back over 9000 PCs to windows 7 would have been pretty drastic.

    I worked for a company in 2010 where we deployed 2000 Dell Optiplex machines with the default windows 7 whql audio driver. They either had no sound or random crashes. The no sound gave us a great place to start looking and didn't take nearly as long to solve.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  10. Joined : Nov 2015
    Posts : 181
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       05 Dec 2015 #250

    sharpestknife said: View Post
    Creating your own custom deployment with MDT is more experience than most of the people we hire haha. It's not much more complicated beyond that btw. Nothing is really.

    I was close with the graphics card. I believe I've solved my issue. I believe It is the default whql audio driver that windows installed interacting with the hdmi audio out driver on the graphics cards. Google hangouts and many other html 5 threads will cause this to happen very fast. I am at the point where I can replicate the crash within 2 minutes. Installed the latest audio driver from the manufacturer and we'll see what happens. So far I have been unable to replicate with the new driver.

    This may be the issue that others are having with their games causing the same freeze/bsod error in windows 10 as well. The DRM or client browser may be using some html 5 functionality while audio is playing. I haven't played any games in a while and we don't do that at work so I'm not entirely sure but I do know that most folks have a browser up no matter what they're doing.

    I'm glad too. Rolling back over 9000 PCs to windows 7 would have been pretty drastic.

    I worked for a company in 2010 where we deployed 2000 Dell Optiplex machines with the default windows 7 whql audio driver. They either had no sound or random crashes. The no sound gave us a great place to start looking and didn't take nearly as long to solve.
    You may already know this, however, more often times than not, the drivers Windows installs are almost always generic drivers and should never be used for system critical driver installs. I always recommend to pull drivers directly from the manufacturer's website [of that specific component], and if none are found, use drivers supplied by the OEM, and as the very last resort, drivers installed by Windows. With the exception of CPU drivers [which must come from the OEM, or Intel/AMD if bought separately], all other drivers should be available from the individual component manufacturers. There are a few select components where the drivers are only available through the OEM, such as laptop HDD free fall sensors.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


 
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