New
#421
So the computer is stable in safe mode?
You can open browsers and can perform downloads?
There is no freezing?
no freezing in safe mode. I am opening browsers and doing things fine so far...
now I cannot get into control panel to uninstall app center and i cannot uninstall from safe mode. Stuck with BSOD...? Restore again??
Use the windows 10 iso and perform a clean install.
Download Windows 10
This time it will be a "vanilla style" clean install.
This means no 3rd party drivers (no Gigabyte drivers).
Only Windows updates.
Clean Install Windows 10 Windows 10 Installation Upgrade Tutorials
I went into safe mode with networking and did verifier /reset and got back into windows. I then raN verifier again excluding GDRV.sys but still got BSOD see new zipAttachment 153421
The last BSOD mini dump could not be opened. The other displayed the same misbehaving driver.
Attachment 153422
is this any better?
When you view the size of the BSOD mini dump in the zip it was only 669 whereas the others were ~155,000. So the creation of the mini dump was faulty and it could not be debugged.
Windows error reporting displays the last BSOD to be the misbehaving driver:
Code:9/15/2017 7:21 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket 0xC1_24_VRF_gdrv!unknown_function, type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 2bdf10e4-4578-4e9a-97fa-4a4acc4b2808 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffc206cb1eaff0 P3: ffffc206cb1eaffc P4: 9b000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-02.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5734-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23B4.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C4.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2442.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\Kernel_c1_36eeea87a348f59c3e9311b4b7bdfef3889d6_00000000_cab_13631bb7 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 72e6f725-f4b7-4b59-8e8a-85a131ecb5fa Report Status: 268435556 Hashed bucket:9/15/2017 7:13 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffc206cb1eaff0 P3: ffffc206cb1eaffc P4: 9b000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-02.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5734-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23B4.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C4.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2442.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_36eeea87a348f59c3e9311b4b7bdfef3889d6_00000000_cab_03382450 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 72e6f725-f4b7-4b59-8e8a-85a131ecb5fa Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 7:13 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffc206cb1eaff0 P3: ffffc206cb1eaffc P4: 9b000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-02.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5734-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23B4.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C4.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2442.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_36eeea87a348f59c3e9311b4b7bdfef3889d6_00000000_cab_03382450 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 72e6f725-f4b7-4b59-8e8a-85a131ecb5fa Report Status: 4 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 7:08 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket 0xC1_24_VRF_gdrv!unknown_function, type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: aef58814-425a-4ca5-aab3-19171a2ddcce Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffab88448f8ff0 P3: ffffab88448f8ffc P4: 5f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4828-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5484-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER229B.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22AB.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22BB.tmp.txt \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER4CF9.tmp.WERDataCollectionStatus.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\Kernel_c1_7920b13d623869addb46ebcd1892aa3a553c71f4_00000000_cab_10e1360b Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: c329e867-2c09-4dd5-b382-d94c4329e3e4 Report Status: 268435556 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 7:01 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket 0xC1_24_VRF_gdrv!unknown_function, type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: f322b8bf-aea1-4093-8ea8-d0ce559c343c Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: fffffd8eed570ff0 P3: fffffd8eed570ffc P4: cd000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5625-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2376.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2385.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2396.tmp.txt \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WERE5A5.tmp.WERDataCollectionStatus.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\Kernel_c1_d4f096bb01d130ef2a7ec16a2621b126695c9_00000000_cab_1f13f3a8 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 58a36f1d-4904-42a1-bebb-ba5548a45fd8 Report Status: 268435556 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 7:01 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket 0xC1_24_VRF_gdrv!unknown_function, type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: f6f00ac9-7a7b-4553-8265-1189b940237f Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffff838a17f7cff0 P3: ffff838a17f7cffc P4: 3f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-3250-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-3796-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER177F.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER8821.tmp.WERDataCollectionStatus.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\Kernel_c1_baf679575a2e705a237a97360ca76e8884cc321_00000000_cab_1f139665 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 8aa6a0f1-3723-4aa9-ac63-ae373f5bf18a Report Status: 268435556 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 7:00 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket 0xC1_24_VRF_gdrv!unknown_function, type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: d09d7be0-8bed-4871-8377-ec02eceb9a67 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffdc0d0972aff0 P3: ffffdc0d0972affc P4: 89000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4968-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5703-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2347.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2356.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C5.tmp.txt \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER29E1.tmp.WERDataCollectionStatus.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\Kernel_c1_8056e57b34fec5407989eb8437080f6b973e51_00000000_cab_1f1337f9 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 38dfee06-fe77-41bb-88ad-4e94a2898f7a Report Status: 268435556 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:55 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffab88448f8ff0 P3: ffffab88448f8ffc P4: 5f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4828-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5484-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER229B.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22AB.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22BB.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_7920b13d623869addb46ebcd1892aa3a553c71f4_00000000_cab_033422ca Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: c329e867-2c09-4dd5-b382-d94c4329e3e4 Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:55 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: fffffd8eed570ff0 P3: fffffd8eed570ffc P4: cd000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5625-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2376.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2385.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2396.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_d4f096bb01d130ef2a7ec16a2621b126695c9_00000000_cab_03342395 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 58a36f1d-4904-42a1-bebb-ba5548a45fd8 Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:55 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffff838a17f7cff0 P3: ffff838a17f7cffc P4: 3f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-3250-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-3796-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER177F.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_baf679575a2e705a237a97360ca76e8884cc321_00000000_cab_02a4177f Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 8aa6a0f1-3723-4aa9-ac63-ae373f5bf18a Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:55 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffdc0d0972aff0 P3: ffffdc0d0972affc P4: 89000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4968-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5703-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2347.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2356.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C5.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_8056e57b34fec5407989eb8437080f6b973e51_00000000_cab_033823d3 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 38dfee06-fe77-41bb-88ad-4e94a2898f7a Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:55 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffab88448f8ff0 P3: ffffab88448f8ffc P4: 5f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4828-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5484-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER229B.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22AB.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER22BB.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_7920b13d623869addb46ebcd1892aa3a553c71f4_00000000_cab_033422ca Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: c329e867-2c09-4dd5-b382-d94c4329e3e4 Report Status: 4 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:52 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: fffffd8eed570ff0 P3: fffffd8eed570ffc P4: cd000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5625-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2376.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2385.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2396.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_d4f096bb01d130ef2a7ec16a2621b126695c9_00000000_cab_03342395 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 58a36f1d-4904-42a1-bebb-ba5548a45fd8 Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:52 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffff838a17f7cff0 P3: ffff838a17f7cffc P4: 3f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-3250-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-3796-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER177F.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_baf679575a2e705a237a97360ca76e8884cc321_00000000_cab_02a4177f Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 8aa6a0f1-3723-4aa9-ac63-ae373f5bf18a Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:52 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffffdc0d0972aff0 P3: ffffdc0d0972affc P4: 89000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-4968-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5703-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2347.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2356.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER23C5.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_8056e57b34fec5407989eb8437080f6b973e51_00000000_cab_033823d3 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 38dfee06-fe77-41bb-88ad-4e94a2898f7a Report Status: 100 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 6:52 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: fffffd8eed570ff0 P3: fffffd8eed570ffc P4: cd000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-5000-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-5625-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2376.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2385.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER2396.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_d4f096bb01d130ef2a7ec16a2621b126695c9_00000000_cab_03342395 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 58a36f1d-4904-42a1-bebb-ba5548a45fd8 Report Status: 4 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 5:51 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: BlueScreen Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: c1 P2: ffff838a17f7cff0 P3: ffff838a17f7cffc P4: 3f000c P5: 24 P6: 10_0_15063 P7: 0_0 P8: 256_1 P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\Minidump\091517-3250-01.dmp \\?\C:\Windows\Temp\WER-3796-0.sysdata.xml \\?\C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER177F.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\Kernel_c1_baf679575a2e705a237a97360ca76e8884cc321_00000000_cab_02a4177f Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: 8aa6a0f1-3723-4aa9-ac63-ae373f5bf18a Report Status: 4 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 3:18 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: PnPDeviceProblemCode Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: x64 P2: USB\VID_05AC&PID_12A8&REV_0801&MI_00 P3: {eec5ad98-8080-425f-922a-dabf3de3f69a} P4: 0000001F P5: WUDFRd.sys P6: 10.0.15063.0 P7: 03-18-2017 P8: P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\TEMP\DMI2788.tmp.log.xml \\?\C:\Windows\TEMP\LOG2799.tmp \\?\C:\Windows\INF\wpdmtp.inf \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER279A.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER27B7.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER27C8.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportArchive\NonCritical_x64_b475546752561532938a6799fa79b96429528eac_00000000_17dc3832 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: bba56654-a255-409d-8f49-4589736210c1 Report Status: 2147491840 Hashed bucket: 9/15/2017 3:18 AM Windows Error Reporting Fault bucket , type 0 Event Name: PnPDeviceProblemCode Response: Not available Cab Id: 0 Problem signature: P1: x64 P2: USB\VID_05AC&PID_12A8&REV_0801&MI_00 P3: {eec5ad98-8080-425f-922a-dabf3de3f69a} P4: 0000001F P5: WUDFRd.sys P6: 10.0.15063.0 P7: 03-18-2017 P8: P9: P10: Attached files: \\?\C:\Windows\TEMP\DMI2788.tmp.log.xml \\?\C:\Windows\TEMP\LOG2799.tmp \\?\C:\Windows\INF\wpdmtp.inf \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER279A.tmp.WERInternalMetadata.xml \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER27B7.tmp.csv \\?\C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\Temp\WER27C8.tmp.txt These files may be available here: C:\ProgramData\Microsoft\Windows\WER\ReportQueue\NonCritical_x64_b475546752561532938a6799fa79b96429528eac_00000000_cab_234827c7 Analysis symbol: Rechecking for solution: 0 Report Id: bba56654-a255-409d-8f49-4589736210c1 Report Status: 4 Hashed bucket:
ok, sorry about that. I'll try running verifier again later. I have to go teach class now. probably late where you are...maybe tomorrow...i have ot teach for 3 hrs or so...