Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.

hbenthow · 22 Aug 2023

ubuysa said:

[*]Prime95 to check that the CPU is good (run all three tests for about 20 minutes each). You'll need to monitor CPU temps during these tests, they will make the CPU run hot.[/LIST]

What's the most reliable program for monitoring the CPU temperature?

- - - Updated - - -

I just found out something fascinating after asking Bing's AI a question. Apparently, some Dell computers have an inherent bug that makes them freeze up due to a power saving setting. Here's what Bing's AI said:

Some users have reported similar issues with Dell workstations and have suggested checking the advanced power settings and changing the “Turn off hard disk after” setting to “never” or after the screen saver kicks in. Another suggestion is to disable the Dell Watchdog Timer application by pressing F2 at the Dell splash screen to enter system setup, clicking on Maintenance, selecting Watchdog Timer Support, selecting the Disable Watchdog Timer checkbox, and then clicking Apply and Exit3. If these suggestions do not help, you may want to contact Dell support for further assistance.

It linked to this thread:

[SOLVED] Brand new Dell workstation freezing up - General Hardware Forum

I now wonder if the Dell Precision 3620 has a similar type of bug.

ubuysa · 22 Aug 2023

For detailed temps use HWMonitor, for just a CPU temp monitor try CoreTemp.

TBH I usually advise people buying a named brand PC/laptop (Dell, HP, Compaq, etc.) to test the PC fully with the pre-installed OS and then clean install a new copy of Windows. This is partly to remove the inevitable bloatware, but also to get rid of these proprietary monitor/watchdog tools - like the Dell Watchdog Timer - that add little value yet add another layer of complexity. I would recommend the same to you.

In my opinion, if there is a systemic issue with the Dell Watchdog Timer, then I would expect any seller of a refurbished PC to be aware of that and to ship the PC with the appropriate settings. When you buy a refurbished PC, as with a new one, you have a reasonable expectation that it all works properly.

hbenthow · 22 Aug 2023

ubuysa said:

For detailed temps use HWMonitor, for just a CPU temp monitor try CoreTemp.

Thank you.

TBH I usually advise people buying a named brand PC/laptop (Dell, HP, Compaq, etc.) to test the PC fully with the pre-installed OS and then clean install a new copy of Windows. This is partly to remove the inevitable bloatware, but also to get rid of these proprietary monitor/watchdog tools - like the Dell Watchdog Timer - that add little value yet add another layer of complexity. I would recommend the same to you.

Oddly enough, my clean install on that last computer seems to have made things worse. After I applied all of the updates and drivers, it froze much more frequently (about every five to ten minutes) than the refurbishers' copy of Windows had.

In my opinion, if there is a systemic issue with the Dell Watchdog Timer, then I would expect any seller of a refurbished PC to be aware of that and to ship the PC with the appropriate settings. When you buy a refurbished PC, as with a new one, you have a reasonable expectation that it all works properly.

I've read more about the Dell Watchdog Timer now, and apparently, it's a program to restart Windows if it freezes. The computers I received froze without restarting (except in one instance with the first one), so the Watchdog Timer might not be the issue.

hbenthow · 25 Aug 2023

ubuysa said:

Prime95 to check that the CPU is good (run all three tests for about 20 minutes each). You'll need to monitor CPU temps during these tests, they will make the CPU run hot.

After installing the Windows updates as you recommended, I decided to make Prime95 my first test. I ran the first test (Smallest FFTs) for 20 minutes. During that time, there were no problems, and the maximum temperature of the CPU was 97 degrees (From what I've read, the i7-7700K tends to naturally run fairly hot and isn't in danger of damage until it reaches 100 degrees).

Screenshot:

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-1.jpg

During the second test, (Small FFTs), there were no errors, but several cores of the CPU reached 100 degrees after about ten minutes, so I shut off the test in order not to risk heat damage to the CPU.

Screenshot:

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-2.jpg

This is possibly due to the heatsink that was included with the computer by the refurbisher (a standard Dell Precision 3620 heatsink, which might possibly not be optimum for cooling an i7-7700K).

From what I can find, it seems that the type of heatsink usually installed with an i7-7700K is one like this (although this could be inaccurate information):

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-heatsink-1.jpg

The one that is included with my computer is a standard Precision 3620 heatsink like this:

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-heatsink-2.jpg

How should I proceed, regarding Prime95 testing?

EDIT: I just found out something important in a Tom's Hardware thread:

Do not use Prime95 versions later than 26.6 on 2nd through 7th Generation i3, i5 or i7 CPU's, which all have AVX (Advanced Vector Extension) Instruction Sets. Prime95 versions later than 26.6 run AVX code on the CPU's Floating Point Unit (FPU) which causes unrealistic temperatures up to 20°C higher. The FPU test in the utility AIDA64 shows similar results.

AVX can be disabled in Prime95 versions later than 26.6 by inserting "CpuSupportsAVX=0" into the "local.txt" file in Prime95's folder. However, since Core temperatures will be the same as 26.6, it's easier to just use 26.6. AVX doesn't affect Core i 1st Generation, Core 2, Pentium or Celeron processors since they don't have AVX Instruction Sets.

• Prime95 v26.6 - Prime95 version 26.6 - mersenneforum.org

I also found out that the latest versions on Prime 95 allow disabling AVX in the GUI.

I'm going to start over, this time with 26.6.

EDIT #2: I have now tried 26.6 and also 30.8 with AVX disabled. It doesn't help at all. In fact, now, no matter what setting I use, the CPU hits 100 degrees within seconds of starting the test.

EDIT #3: Would this suggestion to fix i7-7700K overheating that I found on a gaming forum be a good idea?

On auto settings your cpu will get overvolted.

Set the CPU Core/Cache voltage to Manual and enter in 1.15v - 1.20v in the "CPU Core Voltage Override", this should lower temps a good bit.

Re: Normal temps for i7-7700k ? - Republic of Gamers Forum - 776449

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UPDATE: I disabled Intel Turbo Boost in the BIOS, and then was able to successfully run all three Prime95 tests for 20 minutes apiece with no overheating.

Test 1 (Smallest FFTs) had no errors, and the temperatures were mostly in the 80s and lower 90s, never going above 92.

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-capture-1.jpg

Test 2 (Small FFTs) had no errors, and the temperatures were mostly in the upper 80s and lower to mid 90s, never going above 97.

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-capture-2.jpg

Test 3 (Large FFTs) had no errors, and the temperatures were mostly in the 80s, sometimes going into the 90s, never going above 98.

Newly-bought refurbished computer frequently freezes and crashes.-capture-3.jpg

When idling, the temperatures are mostly in the 30s and 40s.

Assuming that I leave Turbo Boost disabled, are these results acceptable? Even without Turbo Boost, this CPU can reach clock speeds of 4194 Mhz, which is quite fast.

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I have now run MemTest (it passed), Furmark (it passed) and chkdsk (which gave the following results):

Code:

Log Name:      Application
Source:        Microsoft-Windows-Wininit
Date:          8/25/2023 7:30:27 PM
Event ID:      1001
Task Category: None
Level:         Information
Keywords:      Classic
User:          N/A
Computer:      DESKTOP-GH59TKH
Description:


Checking file system on C:
The type of the file system is NTFS.


A disk check has been scheduled.
Windows will now check the disk.                         

Stage 1: Examining basic file system structure ...
  557312 file records processed.                                                        


File verification completed.
 Phase duration (File record verification): 13.05 seconds.
  10010 large file records processed.                                   


 Phase duration (Orphan file record recovery): 0.00 milliseconds.
  0 bad file records processed.                                     


 Phase duration (Bad file record checking): 1.58 milliseconds.

Stage 2: Examining file name linkage ...
  4170 reparse records processed.                                      


  812422 index entries processed.                                                       


Index verification completed.
 Phase duration (Index verification): 1.37 minutes.
  0 unindexed files scanned.                                        


 Phase duration (Orphan reconnection): 1.09 seconds.
  0 unindexed files recovered to lost and found.                    


 Phase duration (Orphan recovery to lost and found): 4.08 seconds.
  4170 reparse records processed.                                      


 Phase duration (Reparse point and Object ID verification): 12.89 milliseconds.

Stage 3: Examining security descriptors ...
Cleaning up 1424 unused index entries from index $SII of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 1424 unused index entries from index $SDH of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 1424 unused security descriptors.
Security descriptor verification completed.
 Phase duration (Security descriptor verification): 282.82 milliseconds.
  127556 data files processed.                                           


 Phase duration (Data attribute verification): 1.72 milliseconds.
CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal...
  50938032 USN bytes processed.                                                           


Usn Journal verification completed.
 Phase duration (USN journal verification): 631.26 milliseconds.

Windows has scanned the file system and found no problems.
No further action is required.

 976117432 KB total disk space.
  53182392 KB in 301986 files.
    198672 KB in 127557 indexes.
         0 KB in bad sectors.
    707404 KB in use by the system.
     65536 KB occupied by the log file.
 922028964 KB available on disk.

      4096 bytes in each allocation unit.
 244029358 total allocation units on disk.
 230507241 allocation units available on disk.
Total duration: 1.69 minutes (101653 ms).

Internal Info:
00 81 08 00 f2 8d 06 00 10 b8 0b 00 00 00 00 00  ................
48 00 00 00 02 10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  H...............

Event Xml:
<Event xmlns="http://schemas.microsoft.com/win/2004/08/events/event">
  <System>
    <Provider Name="Microsoft-Windows-Wininit" Guid="{206f6dea-d3c5-4d10-bc72-989f03c8b84b}" EventSourceName="Wininit" />
    <EventID Qualifiers="16384">1001</EventID>
    <Version>0</Version>
    <Level>4</Level>
    <Task>0</Task>
    <Opcode>0</Opcode>
    <Keywords>0x80000000000000</Keywords>
    <TimeCreated SystemTime="2023-08-26T00:30:27.8071380Z" />
    <EventRecordID>3025</EventRecordID>
    <Correlation />
    <Execution ProcessID="0" ThreadID="0" />
    <Channel>Application</Channel>
    <Computer>DESKTOP-GH59TKH</Computer>
    <Security />
  </System>
  <EventData>
    <Data>

Checking file system on C:
The type of the file system is NTFS.


A disk check has been scheduled.
Windows will now check the disk.                         

Stage 1: Examining basic file system structure ...
  557312 file records processed.                                                        


File verification completed.
 Phase duration (File record verification): 13.05 seconds.
  10010 large file records processed.                                   


 Phase duration (Orphan file record recovery): 0.00 milliseconds.
  0 bad file records processed.                                     


 Phase duration (Bad file record checking): 1.58 milliseconds.

Stage 2: Examining file name linkage ...
  4170 reparse records processed.                                      


  812422 index entries processed.                                                       


Index verification completed.
 Phase duration (Index verification): 1.37 minutes.
  0 unindexed files scanned.                                        


 Phase duration (Orphan reconnection): 1.09 seconds.
  0 unindexed files recovered to lost and found.                    


 Phase duration (Orphan recovery to lost and found): 4.08 seconds.
  4170 reparse records processed.                                      


 Phase duration (Reparse point and Object ID verification): 12.89 milliseconds.

Stage 3: Examining security descriptors ...
Cleaning up 1424 unused index entries from index $SII of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 1424 unused index entries from index $SDH of file 0x9.
Cleaning up 1424 unused security descriptors.
Security descriptor verification completed.
 Phase duration (Security descriptor verification): 282.82 milliseconds.
  127556 data files processed.                                           


 Phase duration (Data attribute verification): 1.72 milliseconds.
CHKDSK is verifying Usn Journal...
  50938032 USN bytes processed.                                                           


Usn Journal verification completed.
 Phase duration (USN journal verification): 631.26 milliseconds.

Windows has scanned the file system and found no problems.
No further action is required.

 976117432 KB total disk space.
  53182392 KB in 301986 files.
    198672 KB in 127557 indexes.
         0 KB in bad sectors.
    707404 KB in use by the system.
     65536 KB occupied by the log file.
 922028964 KB available on disk.

      4096 bytes in each allocation unit.
 244029358 total allocation units on disk.
 230507241 allocation units available on disk.
Total duration: 1.69 minutes (101653 ms).

Internal Info:
00 81 08 00 f2 8d 06 00 10 b8 0b 00 00 00 00 00  ................
48 00 00 00 02 10 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  H...............
</Data>
  </EventData>
</Event>

The USB ports are also all working.

SIW2 · 25 Aug 2023

From what you posted disabling turboboost seems to help. Isn't it as better idea to get a different cooler ?

Some of them have taller aluminium bit than others. In your picture it looks like one of the thin ones.

hbenthow · 25 Aug 2023

SIW2 said:

From what you posted disabling turboboost seems to help. Isn't it as better idea to get a different cooler ?

Probably in the long run, if the computer proves to be reliable. (Although I've read some people saying that a major cause of overheating in i7-7700Ks is that the automatic settings of voltage supplied to it by the computer tend to be too much and overvolt and thereby overheat it, and that changing the settings to limit the voltage to a certain range can help, without having to replace the heatsink. However, this is apparently something to be done cautiously and incrementally in order not to cause system instability.)

Right now, I'm trying to assess whether everything is working correctly in order to determine whether I should keep the computer rather than returning it for a refund. I definitely don't want to do something like replacing the heatsink while the 90-day return window is still open (as that could void my ability to return it), so I want to make sure that everything is working properly and safely "out of the box" with no hardware changes.

So far, the only potential issue I've found is the heat issue with the i7-7700K, but it appears that this is a common issue with that CPU rather than something indicating a faulty one, and there seem to be multiple workarounds. If I can definitively confirm that the temperatures from my tests with Turbo Boost disabled are safe and that, as long as Turbo Boost is disabled, my CPU wouldn't overheat from some of the high-CPU programs (like DaVinci Resolve) that I like to use, I think that I'll consider that particular test to be passed rather than failed.

Some of them have taller aluminium bit than others. In your picture it looks like one of the thin ones.

It's not technically my picture (just a photo I took from the Internet), but the heatsink in the second photo (with the black fan on top) looks exactly like the one that came with this computer.

SIW2 · 25 Aug 2023

Is there a particular reason you have bought a 7th gen machine?

Official win11 support starts at 8th gen. There are workarounds of a sort for older equipment - for the moment, but I doubt they will be possible for win12.

hbenthow · 25 Aug 2023

SIW2 said:

Is there a particular reason you have bought a 7th gen machine?

It's the highest generation I could find within my budget ($400) that had the necessary form factor (I need a case large enough to fit a regular-sized desktop Blu-ray drive).

Official win11 support starts at 8th gen.

I specifically want to avoid Windows 11.

SIW2 · 25 Aug 2023

There is only a couple of years till win10 bites the dust.

Some of those older machines wil be repurposed with linux os perhaps, but I expect many millions will be dumped.

I have a b365 motherboard and a i5-8400 in an old coolermaster case. Lots of room and front bays. Pretty cheap to do nowadays.

hbenthow · 25 Aug 2023

SIW2 said:

There is only a couple of years till win10 bites the dust.

It should still work for years after no longer being supported by Microsoft, though.

Windows 11 has too many things I don't like, especially when it comes to sacrificing control and privacy. If Windows 10 ever becomes unusable, I'll probably switch to something like Linux Wine.

I wouldn't mind having a computer with specs that would allow later switching to Windows 11 in case I would ever change my mind, but I haven't found any within my budget, especially with the right form factor.