Getting various BSOD codes

Dragam · 08 Sep 2018

For a long time now (about 1 year - i simply haven't had the energy to really deal with it before now), i've had an issue where my computer will bluescreen after having been in idle doing absolutely nothing for some hours. The file 090718-6843-01 attached is from that. It comes with a wide variaty of bluescreen codes when this happens, but unfortunately it has deleted all the older ones, so i only have this one bluescreen from that scenario.

Very rarely i will get a bsod while playing games, which happened today, which the file 090818-7062-01 is from.

My specs are as follows:

GPU : 2 way sli MSI gtx 1080 gaming x
CPU : Intel i7 4930k @ 4,5 ghz with 1,3 vcore
RAM : Corsair vengance ddr3 32 gb, 2133 mhz cl11, consisting of 4x 8gb modules
MOBO : Asus rampage iv formula
SSD : Samsung 860 evo 512gb
SSD : Samsung 850 evo 1 tb
HDD : WD caviar black 3 tb
Cooler : Corsair h110
PSU : Corsair ax1200i
Screen : Asus PG27AQ 4k g-sync
OS : Win 10 1803 (with the latest updates)

The first thing that came to mind once this started happening was ofc an unstable OC, which i then had disabled for a couple of days, but the bsod's still happened. I've tried reinstalling windows, and removed any uncesseary software, but i can't seem to be able to pinpoint where the issue is coming from. I've ran test with malware bytes, which comes up with nothing, and sfc /scannow doesn't show any issues either.

Any help will be greatly appreciated :)

axe0 · 08 Sep 2018

Diagnostic Test

RAM TEST

Run MemTest86+ to analyse your RAM. MemTest86+ - Test RAM - Windows 10 Forums

Note

MemTest86+ needs to be run for at least 8 complete passes for conclusive results. Set it running before you go to bed and leave it overnight. We're looking for zero errors here. Even a single error will indicate RAM failure.

Make a photo of the result and post it.

Addition:
If errors show up you can stop the test, remove all sticks but 1 and test this single stick in each slot for 8 passes or until errors show, switch sticks and repeat.
If errors show up and you see them a lot later, no problem, the errors don't affect the test.

philc43 · 08 Sep 2018

Looking at the two different types of crash (one after an idle period, the other while gaming) shows some similarities in the kernel memory scan at the time of the crash.

090718-6843-01 - idle crash: Bugcheck code 0000001E

Code:

Start memory scan  : 0xffff8103a72ebcf8 ($csp)
End memory scan    : 0xffff8103a72ee000 (Kernel Stack Base)

               rsp : 0xffff8103a72ebcf8 : 0xfffff802437645dd : nt!KiDispatchException+0x58d
               r10 : 0xfffff80243afa028 : 0xfffff80243696000 : "nt!IoStartNextPacket <PERF> (nt+0x0)"
Unable to load image \SystemRoot\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nv_dispi.inf_amd64_f5be1f8d25335236\nvlddmkm.sys, Win32 error 0n2
*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for nvlddmkm.sys
*** ERROR: Module load completed but symbols could not be loaded for nvlddmkm.sys
0xffff8103a72ebcf8 : 0xfffff802437645dd : nt!KiDispatchException+0x58d
0xffff8103a72ec1b8 : 0xfffff80243764c3c : nt!RtlGetExtendedContextLength+0x34
0xffff8103a72ec1c8 : 0xfffff8024370f968 : nt!MiInPagePageTable+0x178
0xffff8103a72ec2b8 : 0xfffff802437017d6 : nt!MiUnlockWorkingSetShared+0x56
0xffff8103a72ec3a8 : 0xfffff8024384f942 : nt!KiExceptionDispatch+0xc2
0xffff8103a72ec588 : 0xfffff8024384c4bf : nt!KiPageFault+0x3ff
0xffff8103a72ec590 : 0xffffa30df4c20a10 :  Trap @ ffff8103a72ec590
0xffff8103a72ed468 : 0xfffff80fb733ac02 : dxgkrnl!DXGADAPTER::AcquireDdiSync+0x92
0xffff8103a72ed488 : 0xffffe00efcad7230 :  dtdxgkrnl!DXGPROCESS
0xffff8103a72ed4a8 : 0xfffff80fb747b604 : dxgkrnl!DXGADAPTER::DdiEscape+0x13c
0xffff8103a72ed508 : 0xfffff802436ab3d7 : nt!ExReleasePushLockSharedEx+0x37
0xffff8103a72ed548 : 0xfffff80fb73df542 : dxgkrnl!DxgkEscape+0x792
0xffff8103a72ed598 : 0xfffff802436a9180 : nt!ExReleaseResourceAndLeaveCriticalRegion+0xc0
0xffff8103a72ed698 : 0xfffff802436aaa37 : nt!ExAcquirePushLockExclusiveEx+0xe7
0xffff8103a72ed758 : 0xfffff344523ca2fc : win32kbase!vDeleteDCInternalWorker+0x5fc
0xffff8103a72ed798 : 0xfffff80243980f2e : nt!ExFreePoolWithTag+0x2ce
0xffff8103a72ed838 : 0xfffff34451685a84 : win32kfull!NSInstrumentation::CPointerHashTable::Remove+0xb8
0xffff8103a72ed858 : 0xfffff34452505a58 :  !du "ghsemGreLock"
0xffff8103a72ed9b8 : 0xfffff344523e125a : win32kbase!UserSessionSwitchLeaveCrit+0x4a
0xffff8103a72ed9f8 : 0xfffff344523f47c4 : win32kbase!UserReleaseDC+0x94
0xffff8103a72eda38 : 0xfffff344523c823e : win32kbase!bDeleteDCInternalEx+0x7e
0xffff8103a72eda78 : 0xfffff344523c6204 : win32kbase!NtGdiDeleteObjectApp+0x1d4
0xffff8103a72edaa8 : 0xfffff344523efd3b : win32kbase!NtGdiDdDDIEscape+0x4b
0xffff8103a72edaf8 : 0xfffff8024384f343 : nt!KiSystemServiceCopyEnd+0x13
0xffff8103a72edb00 : 0xffffa30d00000000 :  Trap @ ffff8103a72edb00

090818-7062-01 - while gaming: Bugcheck code 000000D1

Code:

Start memory scan  : 0xffff848dcb3d1518 ($csp)
End memory scan    : 0xffff848dcb3d3000 (Kernel Stack Base)

               rsp : 0xffff848dcb3d1518 : 0xfffff802c4dd7869 : nt!KiBugCheckDispatch+0x69
0xffff848dcb3d1518 : 0xfffff802c4dd7869 : nt!KiBugCheckDispatch+0x69
0xffff848dcb3d1658 : 0xfffff802c4dd44e5 : nt!KiPageFault+0x425
0xffff848dcb3d1660 : 0xffffa78222297040 :  Trap @ ffff848dcb3d1660
0xffff848dcb3d1668 : 0xfffff802c4dcdd75 : nt!SwapContext+0x165
Unable to load image \SystemRoot\System32\DriverStore\FileRepository\nv_dispi.inf_amd64_f5be1f8d25335236\nvlddmkm.sys, Win32 error 0n2
*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for nvlddmkm.sys
*** ERROR: Module load completed but symbols could not be loaded for nvlddmkm.sys
0xffff848dcb3d1f18 : 0xfffff802c4c28af5 : nt!RtlSidHashLookup+0xf5
0xffff848dcb3d1f38 : 0xfffff802c4c6849c : nt!EtwWrite+0x2c
0xffff848dcb3d1f78 : 0xfffff802c4c28978 : nt!SepSidInTokenSidHash+0x48
0xffff848dcb3d1fa8 : 0xfffff802c4c214c3 : nt!SepSidInToken+0x3f
0xffff848dcb3d22d8 : 0xfffff802c4c68a00 : nt!EtwpEventWriteFull+0x300
0xffff848dcb3d2378 : 0xfffff80ef9d36b00 : dxgkrnl!EventCreateDevice+0x8
0xffff848dcb3d2468 : 0xfffff80ef9ceac02 : dxgkrnl!DXGADAPTER::AcquireDdiSync+0x92
0xffff848dcb3d2488 : 0xffffe182b9019e30 :  dtdxgkrnl!DXGPROCESS
0xffff848dcb3d24a8 : 0xfffff80ef9e2b604 : dxgkrnl!DXGADAPTER::DdiEscape+0x13c
0xffff848dcb3d2508 : 0xfffff802c4c333d7 : nt!ExReleasePushLockSharedEx+0x37
0xffff848dcb3d2548 : 0xfffff80ef9d8f542 : dxgkrnl!DxgkEscape+0x792
0xffff848dcb3d2598 : 0xfffff802c4c31180 : nt!ExReleaseResourceAndLeaveCriticalRegion+0xc0
0xffff848dcb3d2670 : 0xfffff802c5086240 : nt!ExNode0
0xffff848dcb3d2758 : 0xfffff802c4c3aa68 : nt!KiDeferredReadyThread+0x398
0xffff848dcb3d2818 : 0xfffff802c4c3a5b3 : nt!KiReadyThread+0x33
0xffff848dcb3d2848 : 0xfffff802c4c3a3bf : nt!KiExitDispatcher+0xff
0xffff848dcb3d2928 : 0xfffff802c4c3288a : nt!ExReleasePushLockExclusiveEx+0x1aa
0xffff848dcb3d2948 : 0xfffff802c4c32a37 : nt!ExAcquirePushLockExclusiveEx+0xe7
0xffff848dcb3d2968 : 0xffffe182b9019e30 :  dtdxgkrnl!DXGPROCESS
0xffff848dcb3d2998 : 0xfffff802c4c333d7 : nt!ExReleasePushLockSharedEx+0x37
0xffff848dcb3d29d8 : 0xfffff80ef9cea359 : dxgkrnl!DXGADAPTERSTOPRESETLOCKSHARED::Release+0x29
0xffff848dcb3d2a08 : 0xfffff80ef9dce75f : dxgkrnl!DxgkOpenAdapterFromLuidImpl+0x207
0xffff848dcb3d2a20 : 0xffffe182b9019e30 :  dtdxgkrnl!DXGPROCESS
0xffff848dcb3d2aa8 : 0xffffcdcdf5bffd3b : win32kbase!NtGdiDdDDIEscape+0x4b
0xffff848dcb3d2ac8 : 0xffffcdcdf5c06983 : win32kbase!NtGdiDdDDICloseAdapter+0x13
0xffff848dcb3d2af8 : 0xfffff802c4dd7343 : nt!KiSystemServiceCopyEnd+0x13
0xffff848dcb3d2b00 : 0xffffa78200000000 :  Trap @ ffff848dcb3d2b00

In both cases it looks like the graphics driver was involved. The driver is up to date but I did wonder if it might be worth exploring different drivers or doing a full uninstall of the driver using DDU and then reinstalling it with just the driver and PhysX.

axe0 · 08 Sep 2018

The various other crashes that occured over the past months I believe this issue to have a cause that's not directly graphics related.

Code:

2018-09-08T12:25:52.240		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000d1 (0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 3c9aa96c-ed3f-4459-86f5-9283a698b07e.
2018-09-07T19:18:00.601		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: fdcdce0e-5262-4cf5-8b8e-e39af6a89781.
2018-09-05T20:51:56.052		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000000a (0x00000000b2347acc, 0x00000000000000ff, 0x0000000000000000, 0xfffff80392a64500). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: b68811ab-9348-45ca-a652-d2e74075f620.
2018-09-05T17:41:26.056		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x000015a900000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x000015a900000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 5b9a131d-36c2-42e7-af1a-c86784345d4f.
2018-09-03T18:12:25.193		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000156000000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000156000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 2b8444ad-31bc-4db8-9837-98ced4e50a93.
2018-09-01T13:05:48.183		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 06d36b99-3089-4c13-ad68-9fa537fc1b19.
2018-08-31T19:21:04.782		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000d1 (0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 02455810-38c0-4fa8-bee0-094c1241b03c.
2018-08-27T20:51:39.309		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 4b82c833-c339-497e-bd35-b78d2e6d32ff.
2018-08-25T18:34:26.238		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 75c6d4ed-db58-4084-be59-756679e498f5.
2018-08-25T12:34:58.674		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000161c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000161c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 1847df78-24ca-4922-bb18-6240d8dcbf73.
2018-08-18T12:54:29.051		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000d1 (0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: ef9d8f0d-5cc8-4ee0-bf44-914475de0f6c.
2018-07-29T21:01:59.227		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000162000000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000162000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 508524cc-0fb0-400d-9cc1-99b27a3119f5.
2018-07-28T16:28:37.166		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x000015bc00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x000015bc00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 4d71e6f5-72a9-4117-8a11-23e14a08c694.
2018-07-25T22:54:31.891		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x00000124 (0x0000000000000000, 0xffffe580f8a49028, 0x00000000be200000, 0x00000000000b110a). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: b46bd419-131a-44f7-bb7a-9abeac1167cb.
2018-07-23T16:23:41.368		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000161c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000161c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: ad30b932-0ced-4a2f-a2f3-eb18591e4908.
2018-07-23T00:29:15.108		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: d1984e72-5ccc-423c-be4e-c5c48d8bca1a.
2018-07-17T16:49:16.140		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x000015bc00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x000015bc00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: a3ce7bc7-9f66-45aa-9a46-797ef38cab8d.
2018-07-07T20:57:47.656		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x000015bc00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x000015bc00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: ecfeb52f-e57a-4e73-99bc-8b24ffc93cd8.
2018-07-04T23:26:49.646		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000d1 (0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 3269ccb6-85b2-4aa7-ba42-8159b94eb4ba.
2018-07-04T18:55:56.859		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x00000124 (0x0000000000000000, 0xffff800a35c64028, 0x00000000be200000, 0x00000000000b010a). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: e4d6dd48-30a3-48d6-abc4-bea4b0e50ef9.
2018-06-29T23:08:27.034		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000f7 (0xffff800a93459620, 0x000059e21c2dc923, 0xffffa61de3d236dc, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 0d2a4735-7418-4367-bc7a-d0037e65dd5d.
2018-06-29T21:26:09.538		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000161c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000161c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 2b849021-1680-4a7e-bc40-ff82cab29d69.
2018-06-08T12:38:11.630		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 7e251c10-e6d0-4dd7-b04a-ad73dfc93386.
2018-06-08T02:30:41.382		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000d1 (0x0000000000000000, 0x0000000000000002, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000000000000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: d5693a90-855f-43bc-b95e-0440db8955d9.
2018-06-05T22:52:29.172		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x0000001e (0xffffffffc0000005, 0x0000155c00000000, 0x0000000000000008, 0x0000155c00000000). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 052bd5ce-ca35-4576-8f5a-8b5e3353b5b9.
2018-05-31T03:06:45.098		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000c2 (0x0000000000000007, 0x000000004d52564e, 0x000000000405002b, 0xffff9d804f0482c0). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: dbd5bcec-7bc9-4140-9011-f808c6d78300.
2018-05-31T02:55:55.796		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000c2 (0x0000000000000007, 0x0000000065657246, 0x0000000000050008, 0xffff8306dc302d10). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: c146933c-04ef-4482-a9e9-4938f821331a.
2018-05-31T02:44:41.304		The computer has rebooted from a bugcheck.  The bugcheck was: 0x000000c2 (0x0000000000000007, 0x000000004d52564e, 0x0000000004050014, 0xffff9b8263dc0150). A dump was saved in: C:\Windows\MEMORY.DMP. Report Id: 7d19d352-c0fa-4d2d-80e5-ca12a9979281.

cwsink · 08 Sep 2018

Hi Dragam,

I've recently seen what I think is the same problem you're having on a couple of other systems and I believe it comes down to a problem with HWiNFO64.exe and newer Nvidia drivers. Both the dumps show HWiNFO64.exe as the process owning the thread that crashed. The other people having the problem uninstalled HWiNFO64 which seems to stop the BSODs. I believe the versions they were using were old, though, and a newer version was released in the last few days. I'm not sure if you're already using the latest but if not please try updating and see if the problem continues. Otherwise, please try uninstalling HWiNFO64 and let us know if the BSODs continue.

Using older Nvidia drivers might prevent the problem, too. I saw a forum post suggesting the problem started with the 397 drivers on Windows 10 1803.

edit: They were only experiencing the 0xD1 bugcheck with process, bugcheck parameters, and raw callstack matching your 090818-7062-01.dmp.

Dragam · 08 Sep 2018

cwsink said:

Hi Dragam,

I've recently seen what I think is the same problem you're having on a couple of other systems and I believe it comes down to a problem with HWiNFO64.exe and newer Nvidia drivers. Both the dumps show HWiNFO64.exe as the process owning the thread that crashed. The other people having the problem uninstalled HWiNFO64 which seems to stop the BSODs. I believe the versions they were using were old, though, and a newer version was released in the last few days. I'm not sure if you're already using the latest but if not please try updating and see if the problem continues. Otherwise, please try uninstalling HWiNFO64 and let us know if the BSODs continue.

Using older Nvidia drivers might prevent the problem, too. I saw a forum post suggesting the problem started with the 397 drivers on Windows 10 1803.

Now that you mention it, i've actually wondered myself if Hwinfo might be what is causing it... it's quite unfortunate if that is the case though, as i use it to hook data to the msi afterburner OSD through the rivatuner statistics server :/ I am using the latest version of hwinfo though.

In regards to the nvidia driver, i usually use DDU before installing a new driver, and i normally only install the driver and physx, although with the latest driver i haven't (installed hdmi audio drivers and geforce experience aswell). Though even with only the driver installed after using DDU with previous driver versions, the bsod's has still occured. And as said, it has been an ongoing issue for a year, so long before win 10 1803 and nvidia driver 397.

Something else i've been wondering if it may be the culprit, is my old Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Surround 5.1, which is an usb soundcard. Almost daily it will happen that videos won't play, and games won't start - then i have to deactive and reactive the soundcard, and it will work again. I've tried uninstalling the drivers, finding newer drivers, but to no avail.

In regards to the memory tests, i will run them tonight while sleeping.

philc43 · 08 Sep 2018

With 32GB of memory you might need more than overnight to reach 8 passes of memtest. If you can't afford to leave the machine testing for a whole day or more you might want to test them 2 modules at a time.

cwsink · 08 Sep 2018

Please see the edit to my previous reply. I suspect you might also have had an issue with an unstable overclock going by the 0x124 bugchecks in axe0's list. That 0xD1 problem looks like it could be a recent development, though.

Dragam · 08 Sep 2018

philc43 said:

With 32GB of memory you might need more than overnight to reach 8 passes of memtest. If you can't afford to leave the machine testing for a whole day or more you might want to test them 2 modules at a time.

I will just have to find a day in the coming week then to fully test it :)

Dragam · 08 Sep 2018

cwsink said:

Please see the edit to my previous reply. I suspect you might also have had an issue with an unstable overclock going by the 0x124 bugchecks in axe0's list. That 0xD1 problem looks like it could be a recent development, though.

I find it unlikely to be an unstable OC though, as it's stable in prime95 with the OC, and it never gets pushed anywhere near as hard in actual use - besides, don't bsod's due to unstable OC's only happen under load ? Cause as i said, bsod's mostly just happens when in idle.

What i've been thinking myself though, is if it's the memory controller on the cpu that might be the issue ?