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  1. Joined : Oct 2014
    Posts : 658
    Windows 7
       15 Jan 2015 #11

    Layback Bear said: View Post
    In the process of changing code during development of W-10 I believe that only Microsoft could keep up with all the changes to make a working anti virus. A 3rd party anti virus company would go bonkers trying to keep up at this stage of the game.
    Exactly. That is in the nature of an OS that is in active development. And that is why Symantec and other developers of AV software are probably doing little about compatibility at this stage. When the OS attains the stability of consumer preview Symantec and others will look into this, but only to be prepared when the OS is officially released. Then the product will be extensively tested with the new OS and any necessary changes made. Then a new version will be released and advertised as compatible with Windows 10.

    Modern operating systems are designed to give the illusion to applications that they are running alone on the computer. Most applications have no knowledge of what other processes are running and what they might be doing. For normal applications that is all good.

    But AV applications are not "normal". Their purpose is to detect and deal with malicious software that is using every dirty trick in the book (and probably a few new ones) to evade detection. Modern malware has invaded system address space, normally the exclusive domain of device drivers and the operating system kernel. This address space is strictly off limits to normal applications and enforced by the OS.


    Simple file scanning is no longer adequate to detect modern malware. AV products must use highly advanced techniques and go into system address space where malware resides. To do this the AV product will require detailed internal knowledge of the specific OS it is running under. Doing that with an OS under active development is almost impossible and at the least highly impractical. That an AV product might crash while attempting this in an unknown OS is hardly surprising.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2.    16 Jan 2015 #12

    LMiller7 said: View Post
    Layback Bear said: View Post
    In the process of changing code during development of W-10 I believe that only Microsoft could keep up with all the changes to make a working anti virus. A 3rd party anti virus company would go bonkers trying to keep up at this stage of the game.
    Exactly. That is in the nature of an OS that is in active development. And that is why Symantec and other developers of AV software are probably doing little about compatibility at this stage. When the OS attains the stability of consumer preview Symantec and others will look into this, but only to be prepared when the OS is officially released. Then the product will be extensively tested with the new OS and any necessary changes made. Then a new version will be released and advertised as compatible with Windows 10.

    Modern operating systems are designed to give the illusion to applications that they are running alone on the computer. Most applications have no knowledge of what other processes are running and what they might be doing. For normal applications that is all good.

    But AV applications are not "normal". Their purpose is to detect and deal with malicious software that is using every dirty trick in the book (and probably a few new ones) to evade detection. Modern malware has invaded system address space, normally the exclusive domain of device drivers and the operating system kernel. This address space is strictly off limits to normal applications and enforced by the OS.


    Simple file scanning is no longer adequate to detect modern malware. AV products must use highly advanced techniques and go into system address space where malware resides. To do this the AV product will require detailed internal knowledge of the specific OS it is running under. Doing that with an OS under active development is almost impossible and at the least highly impractical. That an AV product might crash while attempting this in an unknown OS is hardly surprising.
    Hi there.

    The changing nature of the OS as you point out is an almost perfect reason NOT to use any 3rd party AV on an OS like W10 which has already has a built in security.

    Windows code is proprietary so AV designers either have to rely on "Dis-assembly" or "Reverse engineer" the code or rely on Ms to publish the appropriate (if any) API's.

    An OS like Linux where the source is freely available is much easier to design decent AV's for - although of course it is in general a more secure OS in the first place -- and Linux especially if you use well known distros like Red Hat (CENTOS / Fedora) or SUSE (OpenSuse) usually have a pretty robust firewall built in (you have to enable it of course).

    My take on AV and Windows is that for consumers 3rd party AV software is pretty much DEAD now - it's not necessary, won't always run and by its nature is always behind Ms in fixing any potential viruses going out over the net.

    Windows defender plus the firewall is about as safe as its going to get --the rest is up to YOU the user of course not to get scammed, download dubious torrents or visit suspicious clone web sites or open emails with attachments from people or orgins you don't know.

    Also don't give out too much info on things like twitter, facebook, skype etc.

    Cheers
    jimbo
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  3. Joined : Jun 2015
    MD
    Posts : 412
    10 Pro
       28 Oct 2016 #13

    I use Defender with Windows firewall. I also have MBAM. Because I am not proficient enough I cannot maximize the firewall so keep it at Default.
    First, Defender does not scan offline for me -problem I am not deadly concerned about but would like an answer to. SFC fine..
    If you do want Norton, and are a Comcast subscriber it is free and works with Win 10 1607.
    Don't forget there is a firewall in the ISP's router.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  4. Joined : Jul 2014
    Serbia
    Posts : 7,010
    All kinds
       28 Oct 2016 #14

    maranna said: View Post
    I use Defender with Windows firewall. I also have MBAM. Because I am not proficient enough I cannot maximize the firewall so keep it at Default.
    First, Defender does not scan offline for me -problem I am not deadly concerned about but would like an answer to. SFC fine..
    If you do want Norton, and are a Comcast subscriber it is free and works with Win 10 1607.
    Don't forget there is a firewall in the ISP's router.
    I don't know if this is still relevant, maybe it's been fixed (by Norton) since January last year.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  5. Joined : Aug 2015
    Maine
    Posts : 21,045
    Windows10Pro 64Bit on 2 DeskTop Computers
       28 Oct 2016 #15

    Don't know if this will help the user or not, but, I've been running Nortons on my 4 Windows 10 Pro computers for at least the last 8 years now. I've NEVER had a problem.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  6. Joined : Jun 2015
    MD
    Posts : 412
    10 Pro
       28 Oct 2016 #16

    Norton is for free for those interested in it if they are subscribers to Comcast.
    I would not advocate it. I have found MBAM to pick up some issues defender missed, but not severe.

    BTW, why can't my Windows 10 Defender scan offline with my desktop like my laptop and as it is supposed to? I ran SFC - all OK.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  7. Joined : Jul 2016
    Posts : 264
    Windows 10
       28 Oct 2016 #17

    Norton Security works fine on my other laptop with the latest Windows 10 version.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  8. Joined : Jun 2015
    MD
    Posts : 412
    10 Pro
       28 Oct 2016 #18

    RubberDucky, are you a Comcast subscriber and do all your devices run OK with the Norton that Comcast provides.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  9. Joined : Jan 2014
    Oak Ridge TN, USA
    Posts : 23,939
    Windows 10 Pro x64
       28 Oct 2016 #19

    maranna said: View Post
    Norton is for free for those interested in it if they are subscribers to Comcast.
    I would not advocate it. I have found MBAM to pick up some issues defender missed, but not severe.

    BTW, why can't my Windows 10 Defender scan offline with my desktop like my laptop and as it is supposed to? I ran SFC - all OK.
    Which would you not advocate? Defender or Norton? To me your statement is not clear.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  10. Joined : Jul 2016
    Posts : 264
    Windows 10
       28 Oct 2016 #20

    maranna said: View Post
    RubberDucky, are you a Comcast subscriber and do all your devices run OK with the Norton that Comcast provides.
    I don't use Comcast as my ISP, I use Verizon FIOS. As for Norton Security, I been using it for 6 months before my license expired and after that I switched to good old day Windows Defender. And yes, Norton Security working fine on my laptop only but not my main gaming rig because I only purchased 1 license for 1 PC.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


 
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