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  1.    14 Oct 2016 #21

    jimbo45 said: View Post
    Hi there

    Some people on this thread should definitely "Go Bak 2 SKULE".

    Statistics being shown here are relatively meaningless.

    For starters let's take the OP's statement " Lost Market share" -- well TO WHAT and FROM WHAT. By itself the statement is meaningless.

    Actually you could surmise that in a declining market - new PC's are preloaded with some flavour of W10 on them (excluding Apple of course) so in theory W10's stats should be RISING and quite fast too !!! so something amiss with the stats. (Less PC's but more W10 installations on the surviving PC's so % MUST rise !!!!!).

    If there's LESS PC's around now than say 5 years ago and most of the new ones have W10 installed - you don't need a Nobel Prize in Physics to work out W10 % must be rising -- even if it's meaningless anyway.

    A bit like these Economists trying to work out "Productivity" when a lot of stuff is Event Driven or service based -- How do you work out productivity of Opera singers or Musicians, or computer Help desk staff who can't predict number of or type of problems in advance --reminds me of a criticism one of the characters in the file Amadeus made of a piece of Mozart's Music -- "It's got too many Notes in it" !!.

    Cheers
    jimbo
    To me your whole argument is off base. Your premise is that Windows 10 usage must be rising because of new sales. I believe what the results show us, are that people who installed 10 because of the forces upgrade and the free thing did so. But now, when the updates break these installs, people don't go out and buy a new Windows 10, they just install what they had already bought in the past. That is what I say the numbers show, and I think it was predictable. I hate to be the one to say "I told you so". But I stated long ago, that these numbers are exactly what I thought would happen.

    But not to despair for the 10 lovers, this trend shouldn't last to long (a year maybe), that is when the real results of Windows 10 will stabilize and a clearer picture will develop. I hope this makes sense.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  2. Joined : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,341
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18 MATE (64 bit), W10IP VM, W10 Home
       14 Oct 2016 #22

    jimbo45 said: View Post
    Statistics being shown here are relatively meaningless.
    If you want better numbers, perhaps you can go out and individually count all OS installations worldwide and then report back to us (in say 10 years) what the September 2016 numbers really were.

    jimbo45 said: View Post
    For starters let's take the OP's statement " Lost Market share" -- well TO WHAT and FROM WHAT. By itself the statement is meaningless.
    The statement was a summary and the graph was the content (including a link to the site).
    I didn't think it was necessary to write a 1000 page Stephen King "short" story.
    Since it was too obscure for you to work it out, the answer is, "compared to the previous months' data."

    Additionally, another graph (from a different site) has been posted in this thread, which seems to show the same trend.

    If you can't be bothered to go to the site(s) and look at the data/graphs yourself, that's not my problem.

    jimbo45 said: View Post
    If there's LESS PC's around now than say 5 years ago and most of the new ones have W10 installed - you don't need a Nobel Prize in Physics to work out W10 % must be rising -- even if it's meaningless anyway.
    Just because sales of new machines have dropped, doesn't mean that old machines have been decommissioned.

    Three years ago we had 2 PCs and a laptop.
    We now have 3 PCs and 2 laptops.
    No new machines were purchased.

    I'm willing to bet that market share isn't irrelevant to MS, or your stock market buddies.

    Coincidentally, you have accidentally pointed out why these numbers are surprising.
    If people can only buy W10 PCs, how have the numbers flat-lined or dropped?

    jimbo45 said: View Post
    A bit like these Economists trying to work out "Productivity" when a lot of stuff is Event Driven or service based -- How do you work out productivity of Opera singers or Musicians, or computer Help desk staff who can't predict number of or type of problems in advance --reminds me of a criticism one of the characters in the file Amadeus made of a piece of Mozart's Music -- "It's got too many Notes in it" !!
    Agreed.

    "Garbage In = Garbage Out".

    "Productivity" is used to justify what that particular economist's agenda/dogma demands.
    I suspect that they just grab the specific data (and exclude anything else) which will back up their claims.

    Just like "Official Inflation" rates.

    Note:
    I realise that the graphs contain no data on sample size, or margin of error.
    Last edited by lehnerus2000; 14 Oct 2016 at 21:35. Reason: Quote Added
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  3. Joined : Jun 2015
    Posts : 256
    Windows 7 (SP1)
       14 Oct 2016 #23

    I think part of the problem here is that Microsoft are counting 'Activations' which of course does not mean 'usage'.

    Many of my friends got upgraded to Windows 10 from 7 either because they didn't know what they were doing, or wanted to try Windows 10 or wanted to upgrade to get their digital entitlement to future proof them. I Activated Windows 10 on three computers (so Microsoft counts three computers running Windows 10), they are all now running Windows 7 again. Also I have a workstation which came with Windows 10 but is now Running Linux mint.

    The graphs above show O.S. Usage not activations which to me is a more accurate way to define market share, eventually of course I will either buy a new computer with Windows 10 on, or if they are still running in a few years and I may upgrade to windows 10 with my digital entitlement when Windows 7 support is pulled (but I may not)

    Windows 10 will gain market share as these factors take hold it's inevitable, but will Microsoft gain the trust they once had, the answer at least to me is a definite no, I think the nagging in Windows 7 was despicable, that along with the slow degrading of control in Windows 10 means I mat choose another OS over it. Truth is if the argument is now ''well Google and Apple do the same' I'm thinking I may as well choose one of those over the dull 80's tile styled, bug ridden ever changing Windows 10 , or better still Linux where I have complete control.

    If I'm going to use a tablet or phone (which is the trend) then Android or Apple are much smoother, prettier efficient systems
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  4. Joined : Jul 2015
    Posts : 25
    Windows 10 Pro, 8.1 Pro, 7 Ultimate
       20 Oct 2016 #24

    Wow! I'm impressed.

    Up to a few months ago (before I stopped frequenting this forum), people were defending Windows 10 to the hilt. People seemed to be getting personally offended when people voiced their distaste for 10. Now it seems there is tacit acknowledgement that Windows 10 is not all it could or should be. I've been using it for about a year and a half, and still find myself kinda hating it. It's not the worst operating system or anything, but that shouldn't even be a consideration. There is just nothing much about Windows 10 to love. If it wasn't being 86'ed in the near future, I would stick with 7 till there was a genuine successor. Anyway, glad to know there are statistics that backup my and many others' feelings towards 10 vs. 7.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  5. Joined : May 2015
    Posts : 96
    Windows7 Pro and Windows 10 Pro
       20 Oct 2016 #25

    Well, it's hard to defend a company that removes its QA department. Windows 7 isn't going away until 2020, so you have three years yet. That said, that is only an option if you are going to forego updates to Windows 7 because it's in the same boat as Windows 10 when it comes to QA. Actually, maybe worse. At least with Windows 10 you have the Insider program and lots of poor shleps stuck with Windows Home to beta test some of the bugs out. Of course new bugs roll in, but there ya go. Pretty much Windows 7 is relying on Microsoft's non-test department to flesh out the bugs on any security updates etc. In effect, they are breaking what works to force people up.

    I run a Windows Insider install in a VM. I'll be honest, if the OS was properly QA'd I would defend it more. Some of the changes they are working on for overall usability are small but good. Unfortunately, it's like buying a Lexus and having the wheels fall off as you drive it off the lot because QA never did their job. Additionally, you still have the same UA environment issue. Desktop apps still rule the roost with no sign of that changing....ever.

    Seriously wish Microsoft had just stayed focused on the Desktop OS and made all its applications multi-platform. Essentially they are doing the latter anyway. Net result would have been much happier customers and a larger user base of their apps via mobile on Android and iOS without the added support cost of those OS's. Instead we have this mess.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6.    21 Oct 2016 #26

    vfoster said: View Post
    Wow! I'm impressed.

    Up to a few months ago (before I stopped frequenting this forum), people were defending Windows 10 to the hilt. People seemed to be getting personally offended when people voiced their distaste for 10. Now it seems there is tacit acknowledgement that Windows 10 is not all it could or should be. I've been using it for about a year and a half, and still find myself kinda hating it. It's not the worst operating system or anything, but that shouldn't even be a consideration. There is just nothing much about Windows 10 to love. If it wasn't being 86'ed in the near future, I would stick with 7 till there was a genuine successor. Anyway, glad to know there are statistics that backup my and many others' feelings towards 10 vs. 7.
    I know. I'm glad to see a general turnaround of attitude as well. Outside of this forum, or at retail, Windows 10 generates less interest than a boring poetry reading. I think there's a yearning to want something to be successful. A lot of people complained in 2012 that Windows 8 was flat and ugly with modern UI apps that degenerate the desktop. Yet those same people were saying Windows 10 was the cat's meow a year ago. Hmmmm ..... They hated the Start Screen but loved the new Start Menu (which is really just a modern UI app), and they hated IE's metro build, but love Edge (which is a modern UI browser).

    I was just like that with OS/2. And sometimes I look at the new Blue Lion efforts and say "Wow, it would be nice to run OS/2 again." But then I recall running eComstation in a VM last year. To get any modern Firefox version to work is a real trial. And the page rendering is REALLY slow, and none of the other browsers are up to date. Plus, why would I still care about having excellent compatibility with DOS and 16-bit Windows applications? And where are the plentiful OS/2 applications? What's more, you have to pay for the OS/2 version of OpenOffice. So who needs this thing? Just the OS/2 devotees.

    And there are some parallels here. But it seems now that Windows 10 users aren't taking opposing remarks as personally as they once did (or else they just ignore our posts ...lol). But I'm glad Windows 10 is starting to show it's warts. I'll still frequent the forum, because I'm still interested in what comes down the pipe. I'm hopeful the OS will evolve into something I might like one day, but that hope is dwindling.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  7. Joined : Aug 2014
    Australia, Adelaide
    Posts : 1,341
    W7 Ultimate SP1 (64 bit), LM 18 MATE (64 bit), W10IP VM, W10 Home
       30 Oct 2016 #27

    More info for people to complain about.

    In a few days, TenForums members should outnumber EightForum members.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8.    31 Oct 2016 #28

    lehnerus2000 said: View Post
    More info for people to complain about.

    In a few days, TenForums members should outnumber EightForum members.
    Nothing but crickets chirping over at EightForums.

    Now there is a developer who is a forum member over at MSFN. He has been constantly testing Windows 10 since the TP days, and still cites that there are shortcomings on 10 that older systems still fulfill. Here's what he says:

    With each new distribution of a major build, Windows 10 has needed serious re-tweaking. Some software - such as Aero Glass for Win 10 - doesn't work right at first and so the turning of the system into something actually worth using necessarily has to wait.

    So here we are, at the end of October 2016, and I can state that just in the past couple of days I have finally gotten the "Anniversary Update" - 14393.351 - into shape to where I consider it actually usable. What's that, 4 months after release? This is why it's better to have operating system releases only every few years.

    Well, I have to qualify that... I still have several beta bits of Aero Glass for Win 8+ running, and beta firewall software, but it's finally acceptable to use.

    Listed here are some of the things needed to achieve sufficient usability as a serious desktop system that's App-free and divorced from the cloud, yet all hangs together. These sound deceptively simple, but the devil is in the details.


    • Tweaking to increase privacy and control of Windows Updates.
    • Disabling of UAC.
    • 3rd party software for Start menu, deny-by-default firewall, various maintenance tasks.
    • Setup of features not enabled by default (e.g., System Restore, backup).
    • Desktop usability enhancement (e.g., Aero Glass, replacement Aero 7 theme, various other small tweaks).
    • Verification that needed applications still work.
    • Removal of all but the Settings App, removal of OneDrive, disabling of settings sync, use of only a local account.
    • Removal of many unnecessary scheduled jobs.
    • Reconfiguration of browser, augmentation with custom blacklists.


    Things that even STILL make replacing Win 8.1 with it unacceptable for my use on actual hardware systems here at my business:


    • ATI has ceased including features I need in their current display drivers (e.g., per channel calibration). I don't know whether a Catalyst driver suite from 2015 could work with the latest Win 10, but that's what I'm using on Win 8.1 now.
    • Media playing features are reduced, though most of the media I'd like to play so far seems to play in Media Player.
    • Even with all the tweaking, the Taskbar isn't quite as usable as with an older system, since themes can't change it.
    • Microsoft disrupts compatibility and stability far too often, even with my exercising manual control over updates. I would need to set Windows Update to the CBB (Current Branch for Business) at the very least.


    I continue to re-evaluate Windows 10 to determine whether I can move "up" to the latest OS, in order to stay current, compatible, etc., but for now this one stays on a VM as a curiosity only. I had extra hope this time around, because with Win 8, upon the release of Win 8.1 a year later I thought it was good enough to move up to (and I'm glad I did). I keep wishing that Microsoft will ultimately release something that improves the state of the art in computing again, but alas all they really seem to be doing is hanging new apps on the old kernel and making things less and less efficient. I fear they've lost all the people who know how to do serious operating system work.

    Trouble is, it just won't be viable to continue to run an old version of Windows forever.

    So I wonder what the Windows 10 community might say to this fellow, given that he does seem to have some legitimate gripes about Windows 10. How would he go about addressing these "shortcomings"? I wonder what BunnyJ (who I understand does a lot of development) might say about what this fellow is experiencing.


    FINALLY got Win 10 usable again - Windows 10 - MSFN
    (The link to the MSFN post)
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


  9. Joined : May 2015
    Posts : 96
    Windows7 Pro and Windows 10 Pro
       31 Oct 2016 #29

    Jody Thornton said: View Post
    Nothing but crickets chirping over at EightForums.

    Now there is a developer who is a forum member over at MSFN. He has been constantly testing Windows 10 since the TP days, and still cites that there are shortcomings on 10 that older systems still fulfill. Here's what he says:


    • Tweaking to increase privacy and control of Windows Updates.
    • Disabling of UAC.
    • 3rd party software for Start menu, deny-by-default firewall, various maintenance tasks.
    • Setup of features not enabled by default (e.g., System Restore, backup).
    • Desktop usability enhancement (e.g., Aero Glass, replacement Aero 7 theme, various other small tweaks).
    • Verification that needed applications still work.
    • Removal of all but the Settings App, removal of OneDrive, disabling of settings sync, use of only a local account.
    • Removal of many unnecessary scheduled jobs.
    • Reconfiguration of browser, augmentation with custom blacklists.


    Things that even STILL make replacing Win 8.1 with it unacceptable for my use on actual hardware systems here at my business:


    • ATI has ceased including features I need in their current display drivers (e.g., per channel calibration). I don't know whether a Catalyst driver suite from 2015 could work with the latest Win 10, but that's what I'm using on Win 8.1 now.
    • Media playing features are reduced, though most of the media I'd like to play so far seems to play in Media Player.
    • Even with all the tweaking, the Taskbar isn't quite as usable as with an older system, since themes can't change it.
    • Microsoft disrupts compatibility and stability far too often, even with my exercising manual control over updates. I would need to set Windows Update to the CBB (Current Branch for Business) at the very least.

    (The link to the MSFN post)
    -Some of these he lists are already done. Privacy is a snap in Settings in the newest version of Windows 10. You start with the privacy section. To be fair, you do have to really go through each settings section to capture it all, but everything, except killing Cortana, is there.
    -There are already 3rd party solutions for the shell. Start10 by Stardock comes to mind, but I am sure there are more.
    - I'm not sure where he is going with Aero. That actually seems to work okay, and I've had no issues with legacy desktop, or new desktop programs. I'm a developer and have several developer friends. While we think the UA API sucks in many ways, the legacy support works just fine, and most people I know are continue to develop Windows desktop programs as opposed to UA "apps."
    - You can easily turn off Onedrive. Right click, go into settings and uncheck the option to start with Windows. Then exit for your existing session and you are good to go.
    - You don't need an online id to work with Windows 10. Just chose custom and follow the prompts, this works much better now.
    - If you want to use a Windows ID, you can turn off syncing options in the same section as managing your user in settings.
    - For ATI driver issues he needs to be talking with the OEM or on the OEM boards.
    - It's weird we jump from Media Player features and taskbar tweaking to what is essentially need to have Window-Enterprise needs. I'll be honest, it's rather all over the place.

    For the few that read my post, I would be considered probably more hostile to Windows 10, because of the poor testing, than an advocate. However, most of the list above is already addressed in windows 10. This looks more like a training opportunity because unlike Windows 8.x, Windows 10 has blended Windows 7 and 8. Really you could argue it has blended everything since Win95 to Windows 8.1 into Windows 10.

    There are lots of things to hate about Windows 10. The code does have issues, the updates do replace drivers, the QA is sketchy on a good day. I also hate the 2-d look. I feel like I've gone back to a PC-DOS GUI. However, as far as navigation etc. I found everything to control the OS in about 10 minutes and had it where I wanted it in 20 minutes. The learning curve isn't bad if you give the UI a chance.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10.    31 Oct 2016 #30

    MrBill said: View Post
    -Some of these he lists are already done. Privacy is a snap in Settings in the newest version of Windows 10. You start with the privacy section. To be fair, you do have to really go through each settings section to capture it all, but everything, except killing Cortana, is there.
    ...
    - I'm not sure where he is going with Aero. That actually seems to work okay, and I've had no issues with legacy desktop, or new desktop programs. I'm a developer and have several developer friends. While we think the UA API sucks in many ways, the legacy support works just fine, and most people I know are continue to develop Windows desktop programs as opposed to UA "apps."
    ...
    For the few that read my post, I would be considered probably more hostile to Windows 10, because of the poor testing, than an advocate. However, most of the list above is already addressed in windows 10. This looks more like a training opportunity because unlike Windows 8.x, Windows 10 has blended Windows 7 and 8. Really you could argue it has blended everything since Win95 to Windows 8.1 into Windows 10.

    There are lots of things to hate about Windows 10. The code does have issues, the updates do replace drivers, the QA is sketchy on a good day. I also hate the 2-d look. I feel like I've gone back to a PC-DOS GUI. However, as far as navigation etc. I found everything to control the OS in about 10 minutes and had it where I wanted it in 20 minutes. The learning curve isn't bad if you give the UI a chance.
    I think the Aero issue is in regards to getting rid of Windows 10's "flat" look. I know myself that cosmetics are my major issue with Windows 10, but he likes the 3D and shiny elements that were akin to Vista and Windows 7. It seems the biggest issues are (at least what I've gathered in other threads he's partaken in) is that you go to the trouble of making the customizations, and then Microsoft blows over it with each major revision.

    Any way If I'm going off-topic, just let me know where this gets moved. I appreciate the response.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec


 
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