Create a VM from W8.1Pro before upgrading to W10

VMNewbie · 02 Jun 2016

I apologize, but like my user name says, I am a newbie to VM's. I have created a couple - mainly the new preview builds of W10 to watch and play with the new variations. However I have not been able to get a P2V conversion to work.

Currently, what I am trying to do now is to created a VM of my current operating Desktop (Lenovo i5/12GB, W8.1Pro) before I allow it to upgrade to W10 before 7/29. This would allow me to play with the same software setup on two different O/S's.

I thought I understood it, but alas it doesn't work. I used the Disk2vhd tool from SysInterals and created a VHDX on an external drive. I then connected that external (via USB3) drive to a different machine (SP3. i7 w/W10Pro), and with Hyper-V Manager I created a new Generation 2 VM, and then I tried to start it. No luck.
(Note my disk that I am doing the disk2vhd on is 1TB - is that part of my issue? and my target I am creating it on is also 1TB. The vhdx file though is 346GB)

The message I receive:

Create a VM from W8.1Pro before upgrading to W10-hverror.jpg

(basically "Hyper-V Virtual Machine Boot Summary" where it gives choice of 1. SCSI Disk - No UEFI-Compatible File System was found, and 2. Network Adapter - DHCP failed. Then it says: No "O/S" was loaded. Pres a key to retry boot sequence . . . )

After researching, I tried to follow this article Using VHD Native Boot with UEFI Firmware bcdedit vs bcdboot | dai but I can't mount the VHDX because it says it is in use. I rebooted and tried to mount it, and still can't.

Now I am so confused I don't know what to try.

Anyone willing to give me some suggestions?

Thank you.

NavyLCDR · 02 Jun 2016

VMNewbie said:

Anyone willing to give me some suggestions?

Thank you.

We can't give you suggestions because it would violate the forum rules to do so. Running your old Windows 8.1 in a virtual machine inside a Windows 10 upgrade that came from that same Windows 8.1 license violates the End Users License Agreement (EULA).

jimbo45 · 03 Jun 2016

NavyLCDR said:

We can't give you suggestions because it would violate the forum rules to do so. Running your old Windows 8.1 in a virtual machine inside a Windows 10 upgrade that came from that same Windows 8.1 license violates the End Users License Agreement (EULA).

Hi there.

actually this isn't true.

You CAN run a VM as it's on the SAME machine you had the windows licence for - you won't have any problems with this -- if your W8.1 needs activation just activate by phone and explain you need to re-install before upgrading to W10. You can't have more than ONE copy running on that machine but that's not the case here.

The EULA specifies that the W8.1 licence is valid for the machine it's installed on -- the hardware be it virtual or real doesn't matter - the physical machine is where the product is licenced for. This will work even in the case of an OEM licence.

There's nothing in the W10 upgrade stuff that actually says you have to ditch your old OS either.

What I would tend to do though is create the W8.1 VM using the Vmware converter tool (free) and run it on vmware player (also free).
Run the converter on the physical W8.1 machine first though.

A lot of people tend to give "Legal advice" -- just remember there's a huge difference often in what things like the EULA actually SAY and what some people think they mean - a lot of court cases fail because people get confused between what seems logical, right or even fair / reasonable and what the contract actually SAYS. !!!!

Cheers
jimbo

Kyhi · 03 Jun 2016

Same thing with certain advise (against) dual booting...
As you can only boot 1 OS at a time...
So the License is only active on 1 PC, be it for a different OS..

And the software is licensed to that PC.. Be it loaded via HDD,SSD,VM,VHD or VHDX

Barman58 · 03 Jun 2016

As far as I am aware, Microsoft, (and therefore probably the court system), treat a virtual machine as separate system from the system it is running on. due to the virtualised hardware being different from the actual hardware.

As for running a virtual machine with, the OS upgraded from, on the OS upgraded to, this would be definitely against the EULA as the basic fact is that the same licence is used for both installs (with Ten the Licence form has changed but is still, generated from, and replaces the original licence) - it's possible to re-use the licence for the original OS but only if the Secondary OS is first uninstalled - It amounts to the same as using a key on two operating systems which is not and has never been allowed except for special keys VL, MAK Etc

Willit actually work, Possibly for a while it will as Microsoft's checks are not performed that often

NavyLCDR · 03 Jun 2016

One license for Windows means one installation of Windows, PERIOD. All of the Windows End Users License Agreements can be read here:
Microsoft License Terms

I would direct you to the Windows 8.1 End Users License Agreement:

Thank you for choosing a computer preinstalled with, or updating to, Microsoft Windows 8.1.
How can I use the software? The software is licensed, not sold. Under this license agreement, we grant you the right to install and run one copy on the computer on which you acquired the software (the licensed computer), for use by one person at a time, but only if you comply with all the terms of this agreement.
ADDITIONAL TERMS
1. License Rights and Multi-User Scenarios
a. Computer. In this agreement, “computer” means a hardware system (whether
physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the software. A
hardware partition or blade is considered to be a computer. The software is licensed
to run on only one processor on the licensed computer.

It has been the standard interpretation of the moderators of this forum that an upgrade from a previous version of Windows uses the license of the previous operating system as the license to use the upgraded OS. In other words when you upgrade from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 you go not get an additional license to install and activate a second copy of Windows. You still have only 1 license for Windows. That is the difference between upgrading and purchasing a new copy.

It's quite clear in the EULA - a Virtual Machine is considered a second, separate and distinct computer. It's the same in the Windows 10 EULA:

2. Installation and Use Rights.
a. License. The software is licensed, not sold. Under this agreement, we grant you the right to install and run one instance of the software on your device (the licensed device), for use by one person at a time, so long as you comply with all the terms of this agreement
b. Device. In this agreement, “device” means a hardware system (whether physical or virtual) with an internal storage device capable of running the software.
d. Multi use scenarios.
(iv) Use in a virtualized environment. This license allows you to install only one instance of the software for use on one device, whether that device is physical or virtual. If you want to use the software on more than one virtual device, you must obtain a separate license for each instance.

And if you want to go with saying, "Well, if I dual boot, I am only 'USING' one copy of Windows at a time" - how is that any different than installing the same single license Windows copy on 10 different computers and claiming, "Well, I'm only going to have 1 of them powered on at a time, so, really, I am only 'USING' one copy of Windows!'?

jimbo45 · 03 Jun 2016

NavyLCDR said:

One license for Windows means one installation of Windows, PERIOD. All of the Windows End Users License Agreements can be read here:
Microsoft License Terms

I would direct you to the Windows 8.1 End Users License Agreement:

It has been the standard interpretation of the moderators of this forum that an upgrade from a previous version of Windows uses the license of the previous operating system as the license to use the upgraded OS. In other words when you upgrade from Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 you go not get an additional license to install and activate a second copy of Windows. You still have only 1 license for Windows. That is the difference between upgrading and purchasing a new copy.

It's quite clear in the EULA - a Virtual Machine is considered a second, separate and distinct computer. It's the same in the Windows 10 EULA:

And if you want to go with saying, "Well, if I dual boot, I am only 'USING' one copy of Windows at a time" - how is that any different than installing the same single license Windows copy on 10 different computers and claiming, "Well, I'm only going to have 1 of them powered on at a time, so, really, I am only 'USING' one copy of Windows!'?

Hi there

You are only running ONE COPY of Windows --

Does this mean then you cannot for example on a VISTA or even a Linux Host run XP, W7, W8, W10 VM's even though you've got and PAID for licences.

The copy of Windows referred to is that particular copy not any other previous LICENSED releases you have.

I'm sorry to labour this but it's an important principle as loads of us DO run VM's with different OS'es on a physical machine.

Perhaps a Lawyer from Ms's legal dept could clarify the issue here -- that if you have a LEGALLY paid for copy of Windows you can run it on the machine you licensed it for irrespective of any other software running on the machine. You do need to ensure that you have activated the Windows OS on the VM properly.

I know Ms has always been a bit vague on VM's but perhaps someone from their legal dept could post here and give a definitive answer on this.
Note running say two or 3 W10 VM's from the same licence concurrently is against the EULA --running ONE though is fine.

There is a difference between "The Interpretation on the Forum means ...." and the actual letter of the law.

As far as running on say a different Host -- Linux for example - running different LICENSED versions of Windows as VM's has never caused any problems with Ms.

It would be good to have Ms's REAL answer on all of this though --from a proper source AT THE TOP -- not some off shored call centre managed by relatively low level staff.

It's possible of course that the free upgrade should be or is treated differently to Retail purchased copies -- but I doubt whether Ms is in any way shape or form the remotest bit bothered by this -- it's only "Small Beer" here compared to Mega piracy of Office and Windows 10 which is of much more concern to Ms.

My impression is that currently the new activation system from Ms has more holes than a sieve in it and Piracy seems far more rampant than with any of the old methods they used. A few people running "technically illegal" VM's on their Free upgrade won't cause them sleepless nights since if you think about it the Free upgrade isn't actually offering any immediate revenue -- they hope to sell addons later or get people to buy W10 when they get new hardware.

Cheers
jimbo

NavyLCDR · 03 Jun 2016

Jimbo -

If the host computer is running Windows - and the virtual machine on that host computer is running Windows - then TWO SEPARATE licenses for Windows is required - one for the Windows installation that is hosting the virtual machine and one for the Windows installation that is running in the virtual machine. And Microsoft has in no way been vague about virtual machines. The EULAs very clearly explain that Microsoft considers a virtual machine to be a separate computer or device.

Nobody is saying you can't run a properly licensed copy of Windows inside a virtual machine. But when you upgrade, you use the license from the previous OS to install and run the OS upgraded to. That's the entire difference between an upgrade and a license that is purchased separately. When you upgrade Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 you still have only 1 license for 1 activated installation of Windows. Is it legal for me to upgrade a computer from a retail version of Windows 8.1 to Windows 10, then re-install the Windows 8.1 on a different computer and sell it while I keep the Windows 10 on the computer that I keep? If you create a VM in the Windows 10 from an upgrade, and then you run the OS that it was upgraded from in the VM - you are running two separate copies of Windows that require 2 separate licenses which you don't have, unless you purchase the second one separately.

What Microsoft chooses to enforce or not, and how Microsoft chooses to enforce it has absolutely no bearing on what violates the EULA and what doesn't. If you travel 60 mph on a road with a 45 mph speed limit you are still violating the law even if there is no police officer there to see it and even if you do pass a police officer and they choose not to stop you.

What Microsoft chooses to enforce or not, and how Microsoft chooses to enforce it also has absolutely no bearing on what the rules of this forum are.

Read what the OP wants to do:

VMNewbie said:

Currently, what I am trying to do now is to created a VM of my current operating Desktop (Lenovo i5/12GB, W8.1Pro) before I allow it to upgrade to W10 before 7/29. This would allow me to play with the same software setup on two different O/S's.

He wants to create TWO copies of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro. He wants to run the second COPY of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro inside a virtual machine on a DIFFERENT computer. (Although it doesn't matter if the VM is on a different computer or not.) So he has two separate COPIES of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro running on TWO different computers at the same time. And even if the VM was on the same physical hardware, Microsoft still clearly explains in their EULAs that a VM is a separate computer. Then he wants to upgrade one of the two COPIES of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro to Windows 10 so that he can "play with" two different O/S's. If he intends to purchase or already has two separate licenses for Windows 8.1 Pro, he certainly did not mention it in the OP. He also never mention removing the first copy of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro from the computer that the second COPY of the SAME Windows 8.1 Pro came from.

lx07 · 03 Jun 2016

There is nothing vague at all about running Windows in a VM. You need a licence to activate it.

The only (possibly) interesting difference is that if you run a VM and sometimes native boot it as VHD it will pick up the device activation of the host. This is not a normal thing to do and it certainly does not get away from what @NavyLCDR said that you must have a licence for every instance of Windows you run. The only difference is that it will use a different activation running VM to native boot and it will make you re-validate your activation.

NavyLCDR · 03 Jun 2016

lx07 said:

There is nothing vague at all about running Windows in a VM. You need a licence to activate it.

And that is true of any Windows running in any VM - but even more so in the situation the OP wants to create:

VMNewbie said:

Currently, what I am trying to do now is to created a VM of my current operating Desktop (Lenovo i5/12GB, W8.1Pro) before I allow it to upgrade to W10 before 7/29. This would allow me to play with the same software setup on two different O/S's.

I thought I understood it, but alas it doesn't work. I used the Disk2vhd tool from SysInterals and created a VHDX on an external drive. I then connected that external (via USB3) drive to a different machine (SP3. i7 w/W10Pro), and with Hyper-V Manager I created a new Generation 2 VM, and then I tried to start it. No luck.

He wants to take a copy of Windows 8.1 Pro from one computer and run it as a virtual machine on a second computer. There was no mention in the OP of having or purchasing a separate license for the copy he made to run not only on a virtual machine (which MS clearly states is a separate computer or device) but to run on a virtual machine hosted on a second computer! And also no mention of removing the Windows from the original computer. And, finally, upgrading the Windows 8.1 to Windows 10 is not "removing it"! And even if he did remove it from the first computer - if it was an OEM Windows 8.1 Pro that came with the first computer it would still violate the EULA to move that to a different computer - virtual or not.