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  1.    01 Jul 2015 #11
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Posts : 4,272
    Win 10 Pro x64

    Everyone felt the same way from the very beginning. Especially when MS took away the Start Menu when they first released 8. If you've used Win 8 before and got yourself familiar navigating around it, switching to 10 will be a more pleasant experience. And switching from 7 to 10 won't also be a total shock for new adopters as MS tried to keep the same familiar desktop environment but with extremely enhanced user interface.
    I agree 7 is one of the best OS there is and that's why I am keeping it. But we also have to catch up with the latest OS development if we don't want to be left behind.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  2.    01 Jul 2015 #12
    Join Date : Dec 2013
    Sydney, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts : 7,603
    Windows 10 IoT

    Quote Originally Posted by Windows View Post
    I can see where you're coming from. However, I cannot help but feel that Windows users are being forced into this mobile-centric market in which "tablets", "smart phones", "apps" and "the cloud" dominate proceedings. Personally, I have zero interest in "tablets", "smart phones", "apps", nor could I care less about "the cloud". Moreover, it is abundantly clear to me that Microsoft, with Windows 10, is creating overly simplistic and superficial programs that obscure the core system applications of Windows, hence taking more control away from the user. I feel that it is primarily designed for, and marketed toward, the casual user.
    I don't own a tablet and the only touch screen I have is connected to my Raspberry Pi. I have no problem navigating and using Windows 8.1 or 10 with a keyboard and trackball. Or Touch pad for that matter. I don't see a big difference between settings and control panel? You click an icon for a sub menu etc. You just have to learn where things are. I don't use the cloud for storage, not yet anyway. I do make use of the One Drive sync feature though to sync my windows settings across all my PC's. I use a coup[le of Apps, weather and Slacker radio to name a couple. Nobodies forcing you? You don't have to upgrade if you don't want to. Or run Windows if you don't want to.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  3.    01 Jul 2015 #13
    Join Date : Nov 2013
    Land of 10,000 lakes
    Posts : 10,309
    W10 Pro, W10 Home

    I just ran the Build 10158 update over my copy of Windows 7 and so far everything is working well. Media Center is the only casualty that I can see, but Media Player is still there. I will just leave this install as is until July 29th and then make it permanent. I also have an install of Windows 8.1 Pro on another disk, which I plan to keep as is.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  4.    01 Jul 2015 #14
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 2,887
    Windows 10 Pro

    This line of argument has been made many times before, and it always is based on a misunderstanding of what Windows 8+ is.

    Windows 8, 8.1, and 10 are not a "mobilization" of Windows. It's not a Mobile or Touch or Phone OS. It's just an OS that can be used on multiple types of devices, be they desktops, phones, laptops or tablets.

    There is no longer such a thing as a "mobile os" or a "desktop os". It's just one thing. One OS. It means that you can run the EXACT SAME applications on any device. Not a mobile phone version of the app. Not a Tablet version. The same version.

    The same OS for XBOX, Phones, Tablets and PC's. Let that sink in. You no longer need to buy separate apps for different kinds of devices. You don't have to learn different UI's for different devices. You can play that game you love on your xbox or PC. You can use that contact management tool in your phone, tablet and desktop.

    Then consider that devices are crossing boundaries... Look at the Surface, it's both a Tablet and a PC. Look at 2-in-1 laptops. Look at designs where you can take your phone, and plug it into your desktop workstation and use it as a desktop PC, then take your phone with you and plug it into a tablet dock and use it as a tablet. One device with different input devices.

    The fact is, the desktop PC market is shrinking. There are far more Mobile devices (laptops, tablets, phones) than desktops. The desktop market shrinks each year. That doesn't mean desktops will disappear completely, at least not for a while... but people prefer mobility. Why should Microsoft make a separate OS for a market that is shrinking each year?

    In reality, you need to be thankful for Windows 8, 8.1 and Windows 10. You should count your lucky stars Microsoft is still committed to Desktop OS's. The alternative, based on the way the market is going, would be to totally ignore Desktop OS's and focus on mobile. The fact that Microsoft is dragging Desktops into a unified ecosystem is a good thing, because the alternative would be that the desktop OS would stagnate and nothing new would happen.

    You have to get this. It's important. You have to understand it at a core level. Win32 (traditional desktop applications) are going away. There will always be support for them, for a long time to come, but new apps are not being developed in the desktop space. Everyone is writing mobile apps. That is where the market is going. If you want to use those new apps, you will have to have an OS that runs them. Maybe you don't want them today... but I guarantee that within a few years, when nothing new has come out for desktops in a long time, you'll want to start using some of those new apps .

    Universal apps are more than just mobile. It's cross platform. You can buy devices with any kind of processor, and they work without change. You can buy devices with any kind of form factor, and they work. You're not stuck with x86/64 in a desktop form factor. If you really don't see this change happening, you're not looking hard enough (or at all).

    Look at Chromebooks... how popular they are... and they definitely are.

    You're going to have to change sooner or later (unless you don't see yourself living longer than 5 years). Why not do it now, rather than waiting until the world has passed you by?

    The reason control panel is going away is that control panel only works with x86/64 processors (well, technically, it can work in any of them, but it requires recompiling all the applications for that processor, something third party control panel applet developers don't and won't do.)

    Microsoft isn't "dumbing down" the interface. It's just not as mature as the Win32 interface. Over time, you will see it mature to offer the same functionality as the older interface.

    In other words, you're drawing the wrong conclusions. When you see a simpler interface for a Universal interface, you see it as being dumbed down. What you should be seeing is "Version .1" with more versions coming to expand the functionality.

    Microsoft has a lot of work to do to fully convert the entire OS to Universal, and their first versions are not as feature complete as we all would like. That will come in time.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  5.    01 Jul 2015 #15
    Join Date : May 2015
    Posts : 1,289
    Win 10 14393.51

    Quote Originally Posted by Mystere View Post
    This line of argument has been made many times before, and it always is based on a misunderstanding of what Windows 8+ is.


    Microsoft has a lot of work to do to fully convert the entire OS to Universal, and their first versions are not as feature complete as we all would like. That will come in time.
    Thanks. Quite a nice essay.

    I lived in the Boston area in the early 80's. Minicomputer companies (DEC, Wang, Data General, Prime, etc.) were major employers in the region at the time. The market shifted to PCs, and all of those companies are now gone.

    When I saw Windows 8, I thought that it was an attempt by Microsoft to allow a smooth transition to non-PC devices. I disliked the lack of integration with the traditional Windows desktop. Even minor details like not being able to see the Windows taskbar while in a "Metro" app (full screen only) continued to annoy me.

    I'm not optimistic that the Windows ecosystem will ever develop to the point where a Universal app could be run efficiently on a phone with a 6" screen and my desktop with a 28" UHD monitor, but I won't declare it to be impossible.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  6.    01 Jul 2015 #16

    I love Windows 7, however it does have it drawbacks in today's technical age.

    Windows 8/8.1 are an upgrade do to the sure fact that they can support HD drives larger than 2TB. Windows 7 can do it, but requires additional software, and can be a bit of a hassle. Of course 7 does not have the app store, which may or may not be a good thing depending on your usage.

    Windows 8/8.1 major failure in my opinion was the lack of the start menu, had it been included I doubt, we would even be looking at Windows 10. But with a 3rd party app that adds the start menu, Windows 8/8.1 is really a viable product, though it still has many driver issues.

    So the question for me really is, is Windows 10 better than Windows 8?

    I feel NO, hands down, it has removed so much of Windows that they should have called it something else. Even designing a desktop theme is pathetic. Cortana is not new to Windows it has been there since Windows 7, they just renamed it and added the search function. Removing WMC and dvd support was silly, though it may have been used by a small portion of the Windows consortium, they are avid supporters of Windows products. WMC is the only software for LiveTV that supports premium channel viewing, and was part of the original designers of the cable card features, so to drop that only shows disregard of this client base. Also, the removal of gadgets (though I am not a user), many people are, here again it is much a repeat of Microsoft over the past 10-12 years of designing products and dropping them.

    Not allowing people to chose what updates they want or need I feel is another major drawback.

    Visually, I am not a fan of the Windows 10 interface, I personally like the Windows 8 metro design, but again that is only my opinion. The edge browser at this point is debatable in my opinion. It was supposed to have extensions support, though I haven't seen any of this. Honestly, it is just a browser and so I don't consider it as a reason to switch to Windows 10.

    A few of my legacy software simply won't function, but I am an audio/video type of guy and I had to install an old DirectX 9 software to make a number of my games run. So that, isn't a help.

    The one thing the free give away does, is removes a lot of the boot-legged copies. Though, I highly doubt anyone within this forum is one of those. And I suppose it helps Microsoft in trying to get back some of it's waning clientele, who ran from Windows 8.

    The cross platform talk, unless you are a Windows phone user (those numbers have been dropping) or Windows tablet fan, I can see where that would be useful. But, I don't see Microsoft being a real contender in the mobile arena, it simply lacks in to many areas.

    So, I am left with the fact, that it really has no true advantage, perhaps less reasons, to chose it over previous versions. But, some like it and that is fine, as many in this forum have said, if you don't like it, just keep using what you have.

      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  7.    01 Jul 2015 #17
    Join Date : Feb 2014
    Posts : 7,150

    To accept and embrace Windows 10 is kind of like a factory that just installed a fancy, new computerized machine.
    None of the employees want to get put on the new machine because they don't know how to run it and it doesn't seem to work as well as the older machines.
    Yet, the boss says: "We've got to increase production and, soon all of these old machines will get replaced so, get on it!"
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  8.    01 Jul 2015 #18
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 236
    7, 10TP

    I think before answering such questions, one needs to understand what the computer (and hence the OS) will be used for.

    Most people use computers and similar devices (tablets, etc) for entertainment and communication, as in media consumption, email and social networking, and light gaming. For these people, the difference between devices like iPad, Surface, Chromebook, etc, are just visual aesthetics and mobility requirements. There is no other difference when all you want to do is to check out your Facebook.

    A smaller number of people use computers for work. And here all depends on the kind of work you are doing. An insurance agent on the go will surely prefer a tablet, as long as his company ports their software to it. On the other hand, a trader needs a machine that supports multiple (as in more than 6) monitors, and typically, tablets and laptops cannot. Someone who runs intense simulations (e.g. weather forecasts, power plant designs, etc.) most likely needs something way more powerful than a PC. I doubt such people will find anything in the App Store useful.

    On my main working machine I use Windows 7. It works great and I don't see any reason to change it. I have all the software that I need, so I don't need the App Store. It's a working machine, so I need neither 5 TB hard drives, nor multimedia libraries. I surely don't care about boot time, I never understood why is that important for anyone - how often do you actually restart your machine? I tried Windows 8 and then Windows 10 on my test machine and I haven't found any reason to change. Moreover, I find the new design visually lacking, simpler put, it's plain ugly.

    Now, someone said that Windows 7 is outdated. What does that mean exactly? Well, my new Acer laptop runs it, but Acer does not provide any support for it, they "recommend" Windows 8. OK, but this laptop also does not have a VGA port, so if I need to connect the thing to a projector, I have to use an HDMI-VGA adapter. While looking for such an adapter I read several "opinions" that VGA is ancient tech and nobody uses it anymore. Well, unless you count every University and other academic institutions as "nobody", then you might be getting somewhere, but every projector in every University conference room or lecture hall is equipped with the VGA cord and nothing else. May be it's outdated tech, but in my world, nobody uses anything else.

    So, to wrap it up, I don't believe there is any "better" when comparing modern OSs. I think it comes down to personal usage patterns, and therefore any opinion is necessarily subjective.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  9.    01 Jul 2015 #19
    Join Date : Jul 2015
    Posts : 21
    Windows 8.1 Pro (x64)

    Thanks for all of the interesting and informative replies. I apologise in advance for not addressing all replies.

    Mystere, I appreciate your reply. I can understand why you interpreted my postings as a misunderstanding of Windows 8+. Perhaps I worded my thoughts incoherently. Indeed, as you're aware Microsoft have marketed multiple versions of Windows 10, including Windows 10 Mobile and Windows 10 Pro. As you have correctly stated, the consumer market for desktop PCs is rapidly declining and I am also aware that traditional software applications will be largely superseded by "apps". Nobody can escape the fact that mobile and tablet computing devices will eventually dominate the market share for consumer computing hardware; this much is obvious. My point is that I do not care!

    I believe that a lot of people are falling victim to planned obsolescence as regards operating system and application software. I am a power user and I perceive computer usage in the following manner. At an abstract level, a computer is a programmable hardware device that performs arithmetic operations. At a higher level, a computer is a hardware device that performs useful and/or entertaining tasks facilitated by software, such as operating system software and application software. If I have an operating system, such as Windows 7 (on which a multitude of useful software programs are installed), which entirely satisfies my needs, then upgrading to a new operating system is utterly superfluous. Furthermore, there will always be a small niche market for desktop PCs and, in addition, there will always be people developing traditional application software (mostly open source) for older versions of Windows and, indeed, Linux distributions.
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

  10.    01 Jul 2015 #20
    Join Date : Sep 2014
    Posts : 2,887
    Windows 10 Pro

    A lot of people seem to have clamped on to this idea that there is a fundamental difference in use cases. When you hear words like "Content Creator" vs "Content Consumer", you know its one of those arguments.

    The fact is, the only thing that is different between these use cases in regards to Universal apps is that the Universal app API is less mature and doesn't yet have all the API's necessary for certain Content Creator style apps like Photoshop or Premier. This will change as the API matures. It is ONLY an issue with API availability, not anything inherent in Universal apps.

    As an example, when Windows 8 was released, there were many missing API's for network support, media support, etc... There were a lot of API improvements in Windows 8.1 in this regard, and many new style of applications were enabled. In Windows 10 this has increased again, with new API's that allow (for example) Media to play even in minimized apps.

    This list is a bit old, but as of last October, this was the list of new API's in Windows 10 (Yes, this will be gobbledygook to most people)

    New Windows 10 APIs
      My System SpecsSystem Spec

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