Mmmppphhh

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  1. JRO
    Posts : 60
    Win10
       #1

    Mmmppphhh


    AOMEI Backupper Standard (free?). Macrium Reflect, Genie Timeline, Genie9, Backup Manager and other confusingly related items, Backup Maker

    I thought I could simply create a giant spreadsheet listing all the features these products brought to the table. But with some pro-versions offering fewer capabilities than their precursors, features less understandable the more they were explained; leaving unexplained essential properties like compression ratios, time required (to backup or to image), ability to include and exclude files, and other important features completely ignored, I realized this was a futile approach.

    So I decided to take another tact. The backup programs focused on users who wanted to know their files would be safe and secure--i.e., the products were file-centric. The imaging programs focused on users who wanted to know their file/folder structure would be safe and secure--i.e., the products were structure-centric.

    Backupper or Imager, I want to know, in order of importance:
    1) The program will be accurate.
    2) The program will be fast;
    3) The program will handle the C-drive AND drives attached to it;
    4) The program will be intelligent. It will find the files/folders that needed to be handled. (this was the most appealing feature I hoped my program could have)
    5) The program will generate smaller files.

    It was impressive that both backupper and imager now seem to have extended Restore ability. But its not clear how far you can break your image/Image restore down, and if you can, how an imager is different from a Backupper.

    However, it still seems backup software concentrates on restoring individual files/folders and imagers concentrate on restoring large single-disk segments or complete disks and is usually limited to the C-drive.

    What kind of user am I?
    Folder structure is very important to me. FOR EXAMPLE my home "database" is structured by "Room_" (Room_Kitchen; Room_Bathroom; Room_Workshop; Room_outdoors; etc) Each Room_ folder contains (Folders containing) digital user manual;, repair YouTubes; Model#/serial number photos; and whatever other material I might need to later address the room and the items it contains.

    I saw nothing that addressed this folder-centric need, except maybe peripherally.

    I want:
    1) a piece of software that can look at my C-drive and all the (2 or three) drives I have attached to it and:
    _____a) After each startup, notice which files has been changed/created and take on the responsibility of snapshotting those file/folder context. I determine whether the saves take place in certain time intervals, or in intervals of size increase/decrease.
    _____b) After each startup, notice which folders have been changed/created and take on the responsibility of saving the contents/structure of those folders. This is a capability I have never read about in a program description and it may be the most important capability I need.

    Imaging software: I never seriously used an imaging program. I've always thought of imagers as programs that took on (only) the C-Drive; copied it sector-by-sector, saved it highly compressed, and were available to replace the C-Drive.
    In short I don't understand the (essential) difference between an Imaging program and a System Restore Point. To me, an image is always/immediately out of date; and has no way of telling you where the files are that were changed since the date they were imaged.
    But, what's particularly disconcerting concerning Imaging software is: If images are so sacrosanct, why, when you look up imaging programs, do you notice a goodly number of programs claiming to "repair Windows 10 Image"; "restore image health"; "Cleanup-Image" etc.

    Backup software: I've used Backup Maker (I also used Nova-something which eventually required we count on the company to maintain their backup. Everything seemed fine until the hard disk went down and I found out how prepared the program was to restore my computer - NOT!) I can program it (explicitely or filtered using standard file search protocols) to backup selected disk/folder structures, and to pass up files/folders using the same protocols. Downside: Backup Maker generates extremely large (compressed) files and takes forever to do so. Each backup is set in stone.

    I will probably download (Trial) Macrium, since everyone seems to like it, and I respect you. And I'll create a System Restore point. (what's the dif?)

    Is my understanding of Imaging and Backupping software inaccurate? If so, how?
    Is there any Backup or Imaging Software that addresses my needs.
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  2. Posts : 23,275
    Win 10 Home ♦♦♦19045.4355 (x64) [22H2]
       #2
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  3. Posts : 4,801
    Windows 11 Pro 64 Bit 22H2
       #3

    1) The program will be accurate.
    2) The program will be fast;
    3) The program will handle the C-drive AND drives attached to it;
    4) The program will be intelligent. It will find the files/folders that needed to be handled. (this was the most appealing feature I hoped my program could have)
    5) The program will generate smaller files.
    I will try and answer your questions, I am sure many others will chime in to clarify.
    1. When you create a Clone or a System Image of the drive that has Windows on it, it is an Exact Mirror Copy of the drive. It copies everything on the drive as it is. So, it will be accurate. It also will copy and other problematic files and folders it does not discriminate
    2. The program is as fast as the amount of data on your drive(s) If you have several TB's of data, it will take some time to complete be patient.
    3. In the app, you select what partitions and Disks if you have more than one HDD/SSD that you want to copy, so it is up to you.
    4. Again, you choose if you just want certain folders or partitions backed up or if you want the whole Disk to be copied
    5. A Clone is an exact mirror copy of a Source Disk to another Destination Disk of the same size or larger. If the Source Disk fails, you can replace it with the Cloned Disk and be back in business. If you make a System Image file, it too is a Mirror image of the Disk, but it is Compressed and you can store this Image on another drive. If the HDD/SSD is large enough you can store more than one Image. Also images can be updated with Incremental Backups adding to the original image to keep it current. These images are smaller then the original drive, but still large, depending on the amount of data you need to backup.
    If you have drives that are just Data, and do not have an OS on them, you don't really need to make an Image file of them, but you should have a backup of your most important data on another drive.
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  4. Posts : 43,002
    Win 10 Pro (22H2) (2nd PC is 22H2)
       #4

    it's not clear how far you can break your image/Image restore down, and if you can, how an imager is different from a Backupper.
    1. An image of a disk or partition is (normally) a file containing a compressed copy of the used part of the disk or partitions imaged. That's ALL FILES on the partition.

    Variants of that are image sets- the first full image, and a series of dependent differential and/or incremental images, being
    a. the difference between 'now' and the full image
    and
    b. the incremental change from the sum of the prevous images created

    The second two are smaller files and faster to create.

    Image files can be mounted and files copied from them- thus they are also backups as well as those of the O/S being able to be used offline to potentially restore a non-bootable PC.

    2. (File) backup programs simpy make a copy of files you select and save them where you choose.
    Scheduled/synchronising/manually run backups... several variants on this theme.
    Some programs provide versioned backups.

    Periodic disk imaging is fundamental to securing your O/S, and can be used for any other partition.

    File backups cannot secure your O/S, but are a valuable complement to disk imaging, allowing you to back up continuously or periodically fast changing data which is important to you.

    This addresses your concern:
    To me, an image is always/immediately out of date; and has no way of telling you where the files are that were changed since the date they were imaged.
    Only you can decide the backup strategy that is best for you, depending on
    a. the risks to which you are exposed or expose yourself
    b. how robust a strategy you want
    c. your usage patterns (e.g. how often you make changes e.g. to the O/S, installed programs) and how you use /create data and how often that changes.

    Then consider physical security- separation of your backups from your PCs. Fire/theft/flood/power outage...

    I don't understand the (essential) difference between an Imaging program and a System Restore Point.
    The first- I've described above. A disk image of your O/S partiitons can be used for recovery even if your PC is unbootable because of disk-related issues.

    A System Restore point only covers system and program files. Registry, drivers, updates, installed programs- changes to these are monitored. Before you use a restore point you can perform a scan (option on GUI) to see what will be affected.

    It is useless if your disk is failing. Only occasionally can one be used to recover an unbootable O/S.
    Using one does not affect personal data (apart from certain types of script files if you create those).

    A restore point cannot be stored offline securely. A set of image files can.

    Images can potentially be used to restore your complete O/S etc to a new PC. Restore points cannot.

    3. Summary:

    Periodic disk imaging of at least all O/S partitions is the bedrock.

    System Restore is a useful complement to that, helping you to revert recent changes if necessary.

    Data backup helps you secure personal material that changes more quickly and which you don't wish to risk.
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  5. Posts : 16,950
    Windows 10 Home x64 Version 22H2 Build 19045.4170
       #5

    JRO said:
    imagers concentrate on restoring large single-disk segments or complete disks and is usually limited to the C-drive.
    JRO,

    I've never come across a system imaging utility that is limited to the C drive. Perhaps I haven't looked hard enough. I've only ever used six imaging utilities:
    Norton Ghost
    Back up and Restore (Windows 7)
    WbAdmin - a Windows command
    Paragon Backup & Recovery
    Acronis TI
    Macrium Reflect
    The deprecated*** built-in Back up and Restore (Windows 7) must always include the Windows disk but even this utility allows other drives to be included [as well as the Windows disk not instead of it].
    *** MS often use deprecated to mean that a component will continue to be updated to counter newly-discovered security vulnerabilities but MS will not address functional issues. But sometimes they mean disabled. And sometimes they mean something else. Like Humpty Dumpty, when MS use a word, it means whatever they want it to mean.


    JRO said:
    But, what's particularly disconcerting concerning Imaging software is: If images are so sacrosanct, why, when you look up imaging programs, do you notice a goodly number of programs claiming to "repair Windows 10 Image"; "restore image health"; "Cleanup-Image" etc.
    Those tools are not referring to the system images discussed in the rest of your post, backups of disks & partitions. System images are widely regarded as reliable, particularly if the validation option is used during their creation.
    Those image repair things you've mentioned use image to refer to the whole of the installed Windows.
    The Windows command Dism, for example, refers to the installed Windows as an image [and also refers to some other things as images] - you can see this in its built-in Help by entering Dism /? in a cmd prompt.


    All the best,
    Denis
    Last edited by Try3; 16 Aug 2023 at 10:36.
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  6. Posts : 43,002
    Win 10 Pro (22H2) (2nd PC is 22H2)
       #6

    FYI:
    Today's giveaway of Genie Timeline 10
    Genie Timeline Home Free License Code 2023
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  7. Posts : 295
    Windows 10 Pro
       #7

    Read and learn about Clonezilla (not related or affiliated with Mozilla) and be done with it...

    For periodic backups I would check out an Amazon AWS S3 bucket instance and using a program called S3 Browser. With S3 Browser you can fire off a command via Windows Task Scheduler to automate your backups. You can also fire off similar commands for the WinSCP FTP client... Meaning, it too can be used for periodic backups. FreeFileSync can also be deployed for hard drive to hard drive backups. you can ALSO fire off FreeFileSync backups via Windows Task Scheduler.

    The paid-for stuff which makes it easier for users to use has a massive amount of caveats... One is the privacy invasion, the other is the sheer amount of bloat code they stick in run of the mill backup software.

    For someone that just wants "easy", then AOMEI Backupper would fit the bill. It is Chinaware though, but last time I gave it a spin I never saw anything malicious or whatever. Can't say if that's still true today and their products however.

    AWS S3 Tutorial for Beginners - YouTube

    Edit-

    Always have a backup of a backup and test your backups...

    Edit 2-

    Amazon recently disabled public access to buckets so you need to use an ACL (Access Control List) to change that. ONLY if you want public access. Otherwise don't mess with it...

    Actually, you want to use a bucket policy. How to Set Public ReadOnly Access on Amazon S3 Bucket | Saturn Cloud Blog

    Amazon/AWS S3 (Simple Storage Service) Basics | S3 Tutorial, Creating a Bucket | AWS for Beginners - YouTube
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  8. Posts : 10,741
    Windows 11 Workstation x64
       #8

    S3 is expensive, try Backblaze if you can, it is much cheaper (and faster) and generally S3 compatible.
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  9. Posts : 1,223
    W10-Pro 22H2
       #9

    Your requirements:
    Backupper or Imager, I want to know, in order of importance:
    1) The program will be accurate.
    2) The program will be fast;
    3) The program will handle the C-drive AND drives attached to it;
    4) The program will be intelligent. It will find the files/folders that needed to be handled. (this was the most appealing feature I hoped my program could have)
    5) The program will generate smaller files.

    I would suggest W10's own File History - many people seem to dislike it, but I've had it working in parallel with my own backup stategy since W10 came out (although not an unbroken run). Re your various reqts:
    1. It is accurate
    2. It runs seamlessly in the background, I never notice it.
    3. It will backup any folder(s) you select, although its not intended for system files
    4. After its first run, It copies only changed files (appending date/time info so both you and it can tell later which was created when).
    5. Files are saved as-is, with no compression - this means they can be pulled from the history folder by drag and drop if required.

    Give it a try while you can - MS wants you to use OneDrive, and maybe hides FH.
    Last edited by mngerhold; 17 Aug 2023 at 03:01.
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  10. Posts : 43,002
    Win 10 Pro (22H2) (2nd PC is 22H2)
       #10

    Thanks for the PM.

    Manual for Genie T - click the ? top right ->
    Dashboard information – Genie9 Wiki

    The way I choose to use it is:
    - set up a backup disk allocating it a drive letter late in the alphabet (so that's the one it's always allocated).
    - configure what I want to back up

    Then every time (past any scheduled backup time) I plug the disk in the backup is run.
    - or I can start it from the GUI or tray icon.

    Note that GT is integrated with F Explorer for restoration:
    Mmmppphhh-untitled.png

    (Available when the backup drive/location is available).

    Note the versioned (dated) backup options
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